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A place to discuss topics/games with other webDiplomacy players.
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diplomat61 (223 D)
12 Jun 17 UTC
Conditions for going CD
I am in a game gameID=[199096] that has just reached Spring 6. Someone has taken over Greece after it went into CD (so far, so good) but what I don't understand is that there were no missed orders. I thought there had to be a couple of periods NMR before CD.

Can anyone explain what has happened?
7 replies
Open
brainbomb (290 D)
31 May 17 UTC
(+1)
Anything goes
This thread is to discuss anything other than mafia, survivor, or webdips greatest movie tourney decided by 12 people. Euthanasia, Infanticide, the Mormon Trail, Mitt Romney, Jared Kushner, MacroEconomics, Satan, Whether the Japanese killed people more angrily than Nazi's, whether homeless people can be helped, or even if global warming is a hoax by liberals to sell more dr pepper.
30 replies
Open
Lewis (108 D)
12 Jun 17 UTC
Multiaccounting
xy4 has a multiaccount. His other account is Vladimir Putin, let's get him banned.
4 replies
Open
Lewis (108 D)
12 Jun 17 UTC
Multiaccounting
xy4 is multiaccounting. His other account is Vladimir Putin, let's get him banned. If you know others that are multiaccounting report them.
6 replies
Open
cb6000 (100 D(S))
11 Jun 17 UTC
Fleets only 3
Restart for existing players. P.w. boats3
3 replies
Open
CommanderByron (801 D(S))
08 Jun 17 UTC
*eggplant emoji*
gameID=200276
1.5 day phase
anon
FP / SoS
9 replies
Open
brainbomb (290 D)
09 Jun 17 UTC
(+9)
Russia linked to removal of PPSC from webdip
According to testimony by Coomey, the Rushians may have influenced the mod things into getting rid of PPSC da best scoring system webdip ever had. Mod team has yet to respond but they have appointed Valis as special ambassador to the kremlin for webdip affairs. Expect back rubs and sandwiches.
6 replies
Open
leon1122 (190 D)
08 Jun 17 UTC
(+1)
Comey Testimony Discussion Thread
Discuss.
63 replies
Open
d-rock (650 D)
07 Jun 17 UTC
What's wrong with America (Empire4 that is)
California is just as inferior as Cuba.
5 replies
Open
Jeff Kuta (2066 D)
07 Jun 17 UTC
(+1)
Kansas Ends Dumb Libertarian Tax Experiment
https://www.vox.com/policy-and-politics/2017/6/7/15753510/kansas-brownback-tax-reform
13 replies
Open
Ghostrating
Is game included in players Ghostrating if there is a CD in it?
What about the NMR?
I remember that there was some rule about the autumn04, but Im not sure.
Thanks!
5 replies
Open
Ezio (2181 D)
08 Jun 17 UTC
(+1)
good nations to be taken over
http://webdiplomacy.net/board.php?gameID=200244
This game has multiple nations in fine position if anyone wants to take over for a CD.
2 replies
Open
orathaic (1009 D(B))
06 Jun 17 UTC
A rogue state on the international stage
m.huffpost.com/us/entry/us_59318952e4b02478cb9aed6e?ncid=inblnkushpmg00000009

There she goes again...
47 replies
Open
CommanderByron (801 D(S))
07 Jun 17 UTC
Idea. For admins
Okay so we often get those people trying to sell passports. It should be the official policy that when mods lock those threads they link the donation page for the site before doing so.
0 replies
Open
famiotradingspty (0 DX)
07 Jun 17 UTC
Buy Real Passports,Driver’s License,ID Cards,Visas ([email protected])
Buy Real Passports,Driver’s License,ID Cards,Visas, USA Green Card,Fake Money ([email protected])

Apply for real register Passport ,Visa,Driving License,ID CARDS,marriage certificates,diplomas etc for sell Guaranteed 24 hour passport,citizenship,Id cards,driver license,diplomas,degrees,certificates service available. Tourist and business visa services available to residents of all 50 states and all nationalities Worldwide.
7 replies
Open
WyattS14 (100 D(B))
05 Jun 17 UTC
Using Scrubs idea for a game...
Let's make a classic game where only fleet builds are allowed!
http://webdiplomacy.net/board.php?gameID=200065
Password is boats
Full press game
13 replies
Open
Mblock (100 D)
06 Jun 17 UTC
Play Diplo
Game starting tomorrow, looking for players. 10 hour turns. Link below

http://webdiplomacy.net/board.php?gameID=200152
0 replies
Open
Mblock (100 D)
06 Jun 17 UTC
PLAY DIPLO NOW
New game starting in 5 min, at 4pm. Looking for a few to join for a quick fun game.

Name is "PLAY DIPLIO NOW", link here http://webdiplomacy.net/board.php?gameID=200151
0 replies
Open
brainbomb (290 D)
03 Jun 17 UTC
Never give up
http://www.webdiplomacy.net/board.php?gameID=197304
7 replies
Open
Volmort (100 D)
06 Jun 17 UTC
Queston about movement on coasts
Is movement like this possible:
Gulf of Lyon -> Spain -> portugal
And my seond question if Convoy see unit is attacked, is convoy still successful or convoyed unit just dont move?
1 reply
Open
orathaic (1009 D(B))
31 May 17 UTC
(+1)
Criticism of Capitalism
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YMdIgGOYKhs

While i'm not entirely sure i'm a marxist, because i'm not entirely sure people should be paid 100% of what they produce (other people offer synergies to increase the value of what you produce) - i am onboard with the criticism that wealthy people have too much power in the system.
6 replies
Open
CommanderByron (801 D(S))
06 Jun 17 UTC
Civil Disobedience
Since I can't comment on the SoW in anyway apparently even expressing disdain for a lack of commentary. I thought, hell the rules don't say I can't make a second thread to talk about times you've been let down or disappointed.
4 replies
Open
Jacob63831 (160 D)
30 May 17 UTC
Give me your "best" puns
The best ones PUNish the people who read it
25 replies
Open
Hauta (1618 D(S))
02 Jun 17 UTC
(+1)
Will America ever realize the German Dream?
The average German citizen enjoys good healthcare and a high standard of living. The average American is struggling.
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Ogion (3882 D)
02 Jun 17 UTC
Doubtful. That would require Americans to get over their paranoia and educate themselves. I don't think we'll get to a point where well being and standard of living is a higher priority than attacking black people and gays. Maybe someday Americans will care more about their own well being than putting other people down, but it's hard to see that happening.
JamesYanik (548 D)
02 Jun 17 UTC
(+7)
@Ogion

the best way to convince Americans to go single payer IS IN FACT to say that they are attacking black people and gays.

you are 100% correct, that will convince them. what a wonderfully straightforward and logical argument.


dumbass
Jeff Kuta (2066 D)
02 Jun 17 UTC
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u7APmRkatEU
Zmaj (215 D(B))
02 Jun 17 UTC
If America realized the German dream, it would be a second-rate Germany. Go your own way, America! Show us where it leads, for better or for worse!
Hauta (1618 D(S))
02 Jun 17 UTC
@yanik, please elaborate. I don't follow your argument.
Manwe Sulimo (325 D)
02 Jun 17 UTC
(+2)
If the Average German has it better than the average American in terms of standard of living, how do you explain the U.S. having the highest median PPP per capita in the world at $26,672 and Germany having only the 8th highest at $20,337?
JamesYanik (548 D)
02 Jun 17 UTC
(+1)
@Manwe

get those damn facts out of here
steephie22 (182 D(S))
02 Jun 17 UTC
Maybe because median is not average.
steephie22 (182 D(S))
02 Jun 17 UTC
(+1)
Actually, it's because Germans get much more free and cheap stuff.
steephie22 (182 D(S))
02 Jun 17 UTC
(+2)
Actually, it's impressive how much free stuff and security Germans get for only 6k less PPP.
StevenC. (1047 D(B))
02 Jun 17 UTC
"I don't think we'll get to a point where well being and standard of living is a higher priority than attacking black people and gays."

The idealogical lense industry is booming!
orathaic (1009 D(B))
02 Jun 17 UTC
Manwe, Germany PPP is 48,260
While US PPP is 56,430

At least according to google.

But lets ignore think about what those figures mean for a second.

There may be some underlying cultural difference which make these two figures less useful than you may think.

For example, if all german families mind their own children, and all american families pay for childcare, then you will see extra economic activity in the US (high GDP, or indeed GDP per capita) because there is an extra person being paid to do labour (you can't measure the value of parents raising their own children, because there is no-one paying them...

In some cases this kind of difference may be signifigant. For example Germany has a social health insurance system, regardless of government subsidies (meaning people don't actually pay themselves, so you can't easily estimate the cost - again, like my childcare example) there are also a differences in the value given - ie outcomes of medical procedures, and the market price (the Germany government mandates a multi-payer system, where the 'sickness funds' can't refuse to insure people) - this monopoly on behalf of the consumers allows the German state negotiate lower prices - though that is not factored into nominal GDP calculations, it should be factored into PPP calculations.

So in the end, German citizens appear to have less purchasing power per year, but get next to free healthcare (as Hauta alluded to in his the opening), and are recorded as having better outcomes (better value for money) - outcomes are pretty hard to measure, but we have one statistic to go by, and that is life expectancy: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_life_expectancy

Now quality of life isn't cleanly measured by PPP you can imagine some claims about the childcare issue. Whether the children in question have a better quality of life when someone is paid to mind them (adding to GDP) or otherwise.

It is possible that Germany has also got a lower crime rate, that means some unseen benefit to living there, maybe less stress and less fear in the life of the average person; very hard to measure with PPP. Unfortunately, again, crime statistics are pretty hard to get, because different countries have different reporting methods... still if we limit ourselves to looking at intentional homocide, again the US does fairly badly compared to Germany (see: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_intentional_homicide_rate ).

So yeah, maybe you are free-er, you've got more access to firearms, and less access to healthcare (which makes you more free to die from being shot by a firearm...) but that doesn't mean you have a better quality of life.

If is rather hard to measure.
ksako8 (1433 D)
02 Jun 17 UTC
(+2)
Same for education in Germany. Compared to the US, higher education is almost free. It is provided for mostly by the government. So that counts less in GDP. In the US, people have more money to spend themselves, but many things like healthcare and education are much, much more expensive (and only available to the rich?) In Germany, NL, France, Belgium, Scandinavia everyone can get a good education and will not go bankrupt when they are sick. Maybe less to spend yourself, but also a lot less to worry about.
slypups (1889 D)
02 Jun 17 UTC
(+1)
@Manwe_Sulimo: source for stats? I'm not exactly sure what "median PPP per capita" means since that could be calculated many different ways. Of course "median" and "average" are different statistically, so maybe not comparable terms here.

Regardless, PPP only measures income, and does nothing to consider health care costs. If you consider Americans pay over $9K a year on average for health care and Germans pay a little over $5K a year, that wipes out most of that difference. See: http://www.pgpf.org/chart-archive/0006_health-care-oecd.

In addition, if you consider average working hours, Americans work 1790 hours per year and Germans only 1371 hours per year (source: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Working_time). Even ignoring health care costs and starting with your base PPP numbers, Americans get $14.90/hour and Germans $14.83/hour, basically the same rate. So if Germans worked as much as Americans, they would have the same PPP. Apparently Germans just value leisure time more than Americans. And if you factor in health care costs, Germans come out much further ahead.
LeonWalras (865 D)
02 Jun 17 UTC
(+1)
If you look at the big mac index, the average big mac is 3.97 USD in Germany and 5.01 USD in the USA. Burgernomics is of course not a reliable way to calculate PPP.
orathaic (1009 D(B))
02 Jun 17 UTC
And if you use this index, instead of just looking at income and purchasing power, you ind Germany and the US tied for 16th place in 'where to be born'.

Which is an interesting measure, and also suggests that the PPP figure above doesn't include all the factors people care about. Unless you, as an American happen to value money over everything else, which may indeed be a cultural difference between the US and Western Europe....
Jeff Kuta (2066 D)
02 Jun 17 UTC
Considering that the United States has had 150 years to integrate the traitorous South whereas Germany has had 25 years to integrate the communist East, I'd say the Germans are doing a pretty good job.
orathaic (1009 D(B))
02 Jun 17 UTC
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Where-to-be-born_Index
orathaic (1009 D(B))
02 Jun 17 UTC
(+1)
Also interesting thing on life expectancy: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SOtoaloIoII

The comparison between the US and Canada tells a lot. Canadians live longer on average, but the richest 20% of American live longer than the richest 20% of Canadians. Which says something very relevant (i'm just not sure what).
Ogion (3882 D)
03 Jun 17 UTC
(+1)
Indeed, medians are useful here. Averages aren't. They're highly distorted by the massive wealth inequality in the Us. If bill gates moved to Vanuatu, they'd have the worlds highest average wealth without affecting anyone but Bill Gates.


Also, the US has a lower social mobility than Germany and greater inequality which also erodes the quality of life substantially in psychological terms


And my original assessment isn't far off. Much of middle America votes consistent against their best economic interests based on their prejudices instead of economics, which is how the "rich people ueber alles" Republican cans stay in office to enact policies that directly hurt the average American. So, it's a pretty reasonable description of the political barriers to the Us ever achieving German style quality of life
Zmaj (215 D(B))
03 Jun 17 UTC
(+1)
That "Where-to-be-born index" looks very suspicious to me. My homeland, Croatia, is 46th on the list. In Croatia, you can walk any street at any time of day or night in perfect safety. Mexico, where crime is rampant and drug lords wage wars, is in the 40th place. Right. I guess they're better because of more women in the parliament or some such crucial statistic.
Jeff Kuta (2066 D)
03 Jun 17 UTC
I wouldn't Split hairs about the difference between 40th and 46th.
slypups (1889 D)
03 Jun 17 UTC
(+1)
Generally, I agree median is a better measure when you're talking about income, since the distribution isn't close to Gaussian. However, I think average for hours worked is pretty reasonable, since its not like there is a small segment working 8000 hours a year (only possible if sleeping counts as work) to distort that number. Hours worked probably is more Gaussian.
orathaic (1009 D(B))
03 Jun 17 UTC
@Zmaj, i didn't do the study, i guess if you were a woman in Croatia you might think differently. But i'm not one, so i can't honestly say.

Still, the point remains, using only PPP to measure the 'goodness' of a country is limited.
Zmaj (215 D(B))
03 Jun 17 UTC
(+3)
Orathaic, after learning that you're not a woman in Croatia, I have much less interest for you.
Manwe Sulimo (325 D)
04 Jun 17 UTC
(+2)
Alright, I need to clear some things up because I wasn't specific enough in my initial post. My apologies.

The figures I listed were the Median equivalized disposable household incomes for the U.S. and Germany in PPP format. What they show is the median annual income of a citizen in each country after adjusting for the difference in the price level of goods in the countries to make them equal to each other and after subtracting taxes and mandatory contributions. Generally, non-cash income such as government provided health insurance and education is not included. Private health insurance cost U.S. citizens $1300 per household when this data was collected, so if you assume the average household contained two people (an almost certain underestimate), you would subtract $650 from the figure for the U.S. to get a Median equivalized annual income (PPP) of $26,022 in the U.S. and $20,337 in Germany. This would leave the "average" U.S. citizen with over $5,000 more annual income to buy goods and services at the same exact price the "average" German would be paying for them.

The amount of income a person has to buy any goods and services with is a well established measure for "standard of living". Of course, there are other things that may affect a person's standard of living such as: crime rates where they live, the quality of the air they breath daily, the laws regulating what they are able to do and what they aren't, the culture within which they live and how it agrees with their own personality and ideas, etc. But in terms of being able to afford physical goods and services to improve ones life, the data clearly shows Americans have it better than Germans.

The reason I have chosen to focus on the ability to purchase goods and services in forming my counter argument to the OP of this thread is because it was the only aspect of the "standard of living" of a person implied. When you juxtapose the ability to buy healthcare with having a high standard of living, and then claim another group of people are struggling, you are leading the reader to infer that that group of people must not be able to afford healthcare and must not therefore have a high standard of living because of this lack of ability to afford physical goods and services.

"Maybe because median is not average."

Context. The "average" person is better represented by the median of a data set, not the mean of it.

"Actually, it's impressive how much free stuff and security Germans get for only 6k less PPP."

The data can be further refined by subtracting from the U.S.'s figure the costs that the German's have already subtracted through taxes, but I highly doubt it would cause a reversal given healthcare is most likely the greatest benefit the German's receive and it only cost American's $1,300 per HOUSEHOLD to obtain it and this data is per capita (meaning the exact subtraction would be a fraction of that).

"Manwe, Germany PPP is 48,260
While US PPP is 56,430

At least according to google."

Those are GDP figures, not personal disposable income, sorry for the confusion.

"@Manwe_Sulimo: source for stats? I'm not exactly sure what "median PPP per capita" means since that could be calculated many different ways. Of course "median" and "average" are different statistically, so maybe not comparable terms here."

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Household_income

"Regardless, PPP only measures income, and does nothing to consider health care costs. If you consider Americans pay over $9K a year on average for health care and Germans pay a little over $5K a year, that wipes out most of that difference. See: http://www.pgpf.org/chart-archive/0006_health-care-oecd."

The BLS reported that U.S. citizens spent per capita $2,977 on health insurance in 2015,and that is much more in line with the $1,300 reported for 2004 cited in the article. The $9k figure in the source you cited most likely covers far more expenses than just health insurance and probably includes the costs of programs such as Medicare and Medicaid. With costs such as those, taxes have already been deducted from the equivalized median disposable income (PPP) and would not be deducted a second time.

"Americans get $14.90/hour and Germans $14.83/hour, basically the same rate."

It's not the same rate because the prices of goods and services in the countries differ, thus the need for the PPP. You also have the problem that a huge percentage of jobs are purely salaried, and have no hourly wage. Additionally, I suspect those are averages and highly distorted by large incomes, making their relevance to the "average" person indiscernible.

"Apparently Germans just value leisure time more than Americans."

This is a very good observation. Differences in the amount of time worked would cause differences in the incomes of the two groups of people. It is another aspect in determining the "standard of living" people have, but does not change the fact that Americans can afford more physical goods and services with their incomes.

"If you look at the big mac index, the average big mac is 3.97 USD in Germany and 5.01 USD in the USA. Burgernomics is of course not a reliable way to calculate PPP."

It has been reliably used in an informal way for decades. Regardless, it was not the method for adjusting prices used in this study. The conversion rates were taken from the OECD database.
Ogion (3882 D)
04 Jun 17 UTC
Your $1300 per household for health insurance is waaaaay off. Try $6000 including both premiums and out of pocket.
Ogion (3882 D)
04 Jun 17 UTC
Having lives in both places, I can attest to the actually higher standard of Lviv. In Germany
Ogion (3882 D)
04 Jun 17 UTC
In fact even Bls votes $4500 per house hold

https://www.bls.gov/opub/btn/volume-5/mobile/household-healthcare-spending-in-2014.htm

Naturally of course you also have to include the higher morbidity and mortality in the Is of the large uninsured population. Basically, Americans spend a lot more for healthcare but actually get less (in that not everyone is covered).
orathaic (1009 D(B))
04 Jun 17 UTC
@Ogion, not just that not everyone is covered, the life expectancy is lower.

Except for the top 20%. So the majority of people in the US do worse off than (say) Canada. (ie if the bottom 20% of Americans do worse than the bottom 20% of Canadians, but also the group of 60-80% wealth Americans do worse than the same group in Canada... something is wrong)

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51 replies
ishirkmywork (1401 D)
05 Jun 17 UTC
(+1)
This is not a complaint -- just observing
What are people's thoughts on the effects on player behavior when operating under Sum-of-Squares scoring? I feel like I've noticed an increase in land grabbing and selfish alliance play when using this scoring. It has been more difficult to convince an ally with more centers to spread the wealth for a stronger, mutual alliance. Agree?
0 replies
Open
yavuzovic (668 D)
04 Jun 17 UTC
webdiplomacy.com?????
We can enter vdiplomacy from vdiplomacy.com or vdiplomacy.net . But if we write webdiplomacy.com , we will see something about domains. Webdiplomacy.com is for sale. This pages URL is we..cy.net. What is these domains and what is we..cy.com?
7 replies
Open
Scrub (198 D)
04 Jun 17 UTC
Fleet Builds Only
So I was chilling in bed the other day when I got this idea. I started a game on the standard map, cause I thought it would be interesting. I know that Austria-Hungary would get screwed but I was just wondering what the strategies would be.
9 replies
Open
UmbrellaLover (100 D)
23 May 17 UTC
Guide for 17 player map?
Hello, I'm thinking about joining a 17 person map, but I have no clue if there are any strategies for this sort of thing. Everything that I've found so far, unless super general, relates to the 7 country map. Are there any guides or tips you could give me so that I'm more prepared for this map? Thanks!
17 replies
Open
swagdaddy69 (100 D)
05 Jun 17 UTC
Live Game this afternoon
Hi guys hoping to get a live game going Tuesday afternoon. Here is the game link

http://webdiplomacy.net/board.php?gameID=200053
0 replies
Open
Randomizer (722 D)
04 Jun 17 UTC
Not taking the draw
What do players think when everyone wants to draw except the player with the least units?
2 replies
Open
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