The only team AFC can field worth it's salt is New England. And they're on the wane. It's clear power has shifted to the NFC. All to the good.

It's a cyclical game. Generations of dominant players don't last long in the NFL -- much shorter life spans than most other sports. The NFC is boss right now but nary 4 seasons past quite the opposite was true. The only way to ensure success over an extended period (> 3-4 years) is with a truly elite QB (Brady, Manning, Brees, Rodgers). Otherwise, talk of shifting power is rarely justified beyond 2-4 years.

As for top QBs, I think that once you reach a certain level, it really doesn't matter is "better." For instance, stick Brees on Denver and Peyton on N'Orleans and I'd expect them to put up similar numbers/records. Different elite QBs have different strengths, of course, but once you're in that category it becomes more about how good the rest of the team is and how well the system utilizes QB strengths than some arbitrary measure of raw ability.

Just my two cents.

No Terry Bradshaw?

Oh right. He only won FOUR SUPER BOWLS.

Elway.....Marino....right.

He also called his own plays.

Game. Set. Match.

The question I asked a few days ago regarding whether or not the Seahawks can become a dynasty is whether or not they can resign all their players. What I decided to do was start googling the contracts of each of their star players. Something stuck out when I googled Russel Wilson Contract. Russel Wilson is the lowest paid starting quarterback in the league. Let me repeat that since its such an important point:
Wilson is the lowest paid starting QB in the entire NFL!

He made 17 million dollars less then Peyton Manning did, and I think that is a key point when talking about the difference between the Broncos and the Seahawks, the 17 million less Seatlle spent on quarterbacks meant they had 17 million more to spend elsewhere. Seattle had the best defense and second best special teams in the league this year, which isn't surprising given they had the cheapest offense in the league.

I started googling the salaries of past QBs, and got a good sense of a recent trend:
In 10 of the last 15 superbowls the QB earning less money took home the Lombardi Trophy and 9 of the last 15 superbowl champs had a QB making below the median wage for a starting QB. 3 of the winning QBs where the lowest paid QB in the league (Russel Wilson, Tom Brady and Kurt Warner) while only one was the highest paid (Big Ben). Being a die hard fan of Tom Brady, it pains me to say that the young cheap QB wins everytime against the expensive veteran, the only exception being Rex Grossman.

The statement defense wins championships is true, not because defense matters more then offense, but a great offense is more expensive then a great defense, and so its easier to have a great defense and good offense then it is to have a great offense and good defense.

Football is a team sport, and when you have a superstar QB, you typically wont have a talented enough core to go all the way. Since the league instituted a salary cap in 1994, the only high paid QB to have taken his team all the way on more then one occasion is Big Ben. Which is doubly ironic because there is a general consensus that he isn't an elite quaterback.

As for top 5s, in response to Obi:
Defense:
5. 00 ravens
4. 85 bears
3. 13 Seahawks
2. 78 Steelers
1. 76 Steelers (Only twice in the season did they let in over 20 , and in the last 9 games of the season, only one touchdown was scored against them. While the 76 Steelers didn't win the superbowl that year, they were eliminated by the Oakland Raiders who went 13-1 in the season and won the superbowl. The 76 Steelers defense was by far the best defense ever, even if it didn't win a superbowl)

Offense:
5. 1984 Dolphins
4. 1999 Rams
3. 2011 Saints
2. 2007 Patriots
1. 2013 Broncos

Greatest QBs of all time
5. Joe Montana (I want to see the look on Obis face when he sees that I ranked 4 QBs ahead of Montana)
4. Aaron Rodgers
3. Peyton Manning
2. Kurt Warner
1. Tom Brady

Honourable mentions go to Drew Brees, John Elway and Dan Marino who are the only other QBs I would consider deserve being in the GoaT considerations.

"The only team AFC can field worth it's salt is New England. And they're on the wane. It's clear power has shifted to the NFC. All to the good."
truer words haven't been spoken, for me going into next year the 8 best teams in the league are the Patriots, Seahawks, 49ers, Saints, Packers, Eagles, Panthers and Cardinals.

Its a shame that only 7 of those teams will make the play offs next year, cause the Cardinals and the Panthers could probably beat the Broncos if they played in the superbowl, even though only one or the other will make the play offs.

"Offense:
5. 1984 Dolphins
4. 1999 Rams
3. 2011 Saints
2. 2007 Patriots
1. 2013 Broncos"

Your list--as with your other list, but we'll get to that in a second--seems to crafted by someone who doesn't grasp football far beyond the TECMO Bowl era. :p

Really?

3/5 top defenses in the last 7 years?

That's a short memory if I ever saw one...

1983 Redskins?
1989 49ers (you know, with Montana/Young/Rice/Taylor and a 55-10 SB win?)
The Air Coryell Chargers?
I'd argue the Cowboy offenses of the 70s deserve a mention to.

But the bigger sin still...

"5. Joe Montana (I want to see the look on Obis face when he sees that I ranked 4 QBs ahead of Montana)
4. Aaron Rodgers
3. Peyton Manning
2. Kurt Warner
1. Tom Brady"

Now you're just insane...and not over the Montana at #5 part.

(OK, yeah, that's insane too, but we'll leave that alone for the moment.)

3/5 greatest EVER are still ACTIVE?
Aaron Rodgers, who's barely 30, and has 1 SB win, beats Montana?
Puh-lease.
Peyton Manning over Montana, Elway, and arguably Favre?
Pfff.
Kurt fucking Warner?
That's a joke pick in itself.
And Brady at #1...
At least there's an argument there...I'd still take Montana over him any day, and possibly Elway as well (more mobile) but at least that's more defensible than the rest of that list.

"Drew Brees, John Elway and Dan Marino who are the only other QBs I would consider deserve being in the GoaT considerations."

1. Brees? He's won 1 SB. Get outta here.
2. Steve Young, with 3 SBs, 1 he won solo?
3. Troy Aikman, 3 SBs, arguably the QB of the 90s?
4. Brett Favre?
5. Roger Staubach?
6. Bart Starr?
7. Warren Moon? (Vastly underrated)
8. Jim Kelly? (0 SBs, but 4 straight SB appearances give him at least a little cred)
9. Johnny "I Freaking Invented Modern Quarterbacking" Unitas?

Sure you could argue that given my age, and the fact that I haven't seen a football game prior to 2001, that my memory is too short and that I'm favouring later teams.

But I disagree, the reality is the sport today is more competitive then at any other time in history. The 2013 Broncos and 2007 Patriots belong at the #1 and #2 spot on the list, I'd like to ammend the list to put the 89 49ers season as #3, for some reason I remember them having an abysmal regular season before shining in the post season and that was my reason of ranking them so low.

Regarding the QB list:

Warmer deserves a spot because the teams he where on had no one but him.
2009 Cardinals I think is the best example in history of a QB carrying a team to the superbowl.
32nd ranked run game and 30th ranked defense. Getting the Cardinals to the superbowl and giving them a 23-20 lead with less then a minute in the game, there is not a single QB in history that could have won the Cardinals a superbowl that year, and Warner making that game as close as it was, as well as his contribution to 'The Greatest Show on Turf' makes him, in my mind the most underrated QB in history.

Steve Young, I always viewed as just a shadow of Montana and not an elite QB in and of himself.

The Cowboys in 1992 and 1993 had top 10 of all time defenses, Aikman was more of a product of a stacked team then a GoaT nomination. Great QB, but shouldn't be a consideration for the GoaT.

Favre, his refusal to retire and the many abysmal years he had at the end of his season deminished him. To me the most memorable thing about Favre is how long he was able to remain as starting QB for a NFL team

Staubach, never heard of him (sue me)

Bart Starr, hes from an era before the QB position became relevant

Warren Moon, even if he is underrated, do you actually think he's one of the GoaTs?

Jim Kelly, is by most standards underrated, however he isn't top 10 of all time.

Johnny Unitas, a title he could not patent. He showed the potential future QBs could have, but his stats and records are dwarfed by people who adapted his style of play.

Someone who hasn't even *heard* of Roger Staubach surely can't be qualified to have any sort of educated opinion on the best QBs of all time.

Warner as the second-best QB ever? You can't be serious. You say that Warner's teams had nobody but him, yet you mention "The Greatest Show on Turf" by name. Are you honestly trying to tell me that Isaac Bruce, Torry Holt, Marshall Faulk, Tiki Barber, Amani Toomer, Jeremy Shockey, Larry Fitzgerald, Anquan Boldin, and Edgerrin James aren't good players? Faulk: already inducted. Fitzgerald and James: will almost certainly be inducted eventually. Holt, Bruce, and Barber: all have a shot at being inducted. How much more talent could a QB ask to have on his teams throughout his career?

Let us not also forget that Warner has always played behind good offensive lines (his line in Arizona weren't great run blockers, but they were top 10 in pass protection during his time there).

I do think that Warner is much better than most people give him credit for, but second-best of all time? No way.

Steve Young not an elite QB? Believe what you want, but you're wrong.

Favre and his many abysmal years at the end? His final year, 2010, was abysmal, I'll give you that. In 2009, however, he had the best season of his career. In 2008, he was having great season until he tore a tendon in his his throwing arm against the Titans near the end of the year, throwing 2 TDs and 9 INTs to finish the season with 22 of each, turning his great season into an average one. He had another terrific year in 2007.

I agree that Aikman should certainly not be in the GoaT conversation, but I do want to point out that the Cowboys defense those years weren't even the best in the league, let alone top 10 of all time.

Now Obi, why do you mock Fasces for putting Drew Brees (and his 1 ring) in his honorable mentions, when you put Marino (with none) in yours? Let's compare numbers: Brees has a much higher completion percentage, QB rating, and TD:INT ratio. Sure, Marino is currently ahead of Brees in TDs and yards, but Brees' seasonal average is higher for both, and if he plays three more seasons, he will almost certainly surpass Marino in both categories. And, of course, he already has a ring, with the possibility of winning more. By what measurements exactly do you rate Marino over Brees?

Moreover, how could you not rate Peyton in the top 5? You seem to think it's blasphemy to rank him over Elway. Why? Peyton crushes Elway in every passing category. 97.2 rating (to Elway's 79.9), 491 TDs (300), 65,000 yards (51,500), 65.6 completion percentage (56.9), 2.24 TD:INT ratio (1.33). Does Elway's one extra ring really make up for being completely outclassed as a passer? In any case, Peyton still has a few years left, and considering Elway didn't get his rings until his last two seasons, Peyton just might end up leading in that category as well.

I've never understood using Super Bowl wins to judge the quality of a quarterback (or, in general, using titles to rank any player in a team game).q Barry Sanders never won a Super Bowl; Ted Williams never won a World Series.

The only legitimate way to rank players is the Space Jam method. If your personal well-being depended on the success of an all-star team against alien invaders, who would you pick? If my survival depends on it, I'm picking Manning. Brady, Montana, and Marino come right after that.

I'd pick Brady

"You can't be serious. You say that Warner's teams had nobody but him, yet you mention "The Greatest Show on Turf" by name."
Oh don't get me wrong, his Rams team was stacked, but his Arizona team was one of the worst to ever make the superbowl.

"Someone who hasn't even *heard* of Roger Staubach surely can't be qualified to have any sort of educated opinion on the best QBs of all time."
Bite me

"Steve Young not an elite QB? Believe what you want, but you're wrong. "
Wrong word, he was elite, but isn't a nominee for the GoaT

"but I do want to point out that the Cowboys defense those years weren't even the best in the league, let alone top 10 of all time."
Maybe I was exaggerating the Cowboys defense, but the Cowboys defense was better then their offense at that time.

I'm curious. Did any of these punks CALL THEIR OWN PLAYS?

No right?

The ability to chuck a pigskin does not a FIELD GENERAL make.

If your using play calling as your only metric, then Manning belongs as the GoaT

Uhhhhh. Four Super Bowls, two Super Bowl M.V.P. awards, Hall of Fame....

Nice try though, snot-nose.

Anybody watching La Copa del Rey? Atletico vs Real Madrid?

"Oh don't get me wrong, his Rams team was stacked, but his Arizona team was one of the worst to ever make the superbowl."

1 win vs. 2 losses in the Super Bowl, and you've already said that win was due to a stacked team.

What's more, Warner had a few great years, a few years that almost saw him drop off the face of the NFL, and then some good years to finish out...

In other words, not nearly the stretch of consistent greatness needed to crack the Top 10 of all-time QB list, let alone snag the #2 spot.

"Someone who hasn't even *heard* of Roger Staubach surely can't be qualified to have any sort of educated opinion on the best QBs of all time"

No, I'm sorry, he's right, Fasces...that's like ranking the greatest poets of all-time but having no clue who Chaucer is.

"why do you mock Fasces for putting Drew Brees (and his 1 ring) in his honorable mentions, when you put Marino (with none) in yours?"

In a word--longevity.

Give Brees another few years, I'll let him into that conversation...

Until then, I'll take 0 SB wins but 20 years of greatness over 1 SB win that was also largely due to a hard-hitting (albeit controversial) defense.

To me, longevity counts...and I expect Brees WILL make it into that conversation...he's Top 20, sure...just not quite Top 10 yet...talk to me in a few years.

"Moreover, how could you not rate Peyton in the top 5?"

I did...I rated him #4?

"Does Elway's one extra ring really make up for being completely outclassed as a passer?"

Partially...in addition, he was FAR more mobile--let's face it, even when he was young, Manning ran like Fred Flintstone, the few times he ran at all, he's just never been a mobile QB, and that bit him in the ass on Sunday--and I think he did more with less until the end of his career...

Elway's 80s Broncos teams never had the Marvin Harrison Peyton had.

Now, having a good receiving tandem isn't a demerit per se.

Montana-to-Rice was a great tandem...

But that being said, Montana also won Super Bowls with Freddie Solomon, Dwight Clark, John Taylor...he won Super Bowls with and without Roger Craig...

Brady is similar in that regard, in a way, winning with David Patten, Troy Brown, Deion Branch...but ironically enough, not with his most prolific targets, Wes Welker or Randy Moss.

"In any case, Peyton still has a few years left, and considering Elway didn't get his rings until his last two seasons, Peyton just might end up leading in that category as well."

True. He could win two in a row, and be hailed as the greatest ever.

Do I personally think he'll even win one more?

No--this was his year, this was his chance, the Broncos have salary cap issues and the NFC is far too tough.

But it could happen.

Until then...he's hugging that #4 spot.

"The only legitimate way to rank players is the Space Jam method. If your personal well-being depended on the success of an all-star team against alien invaders, who would you pick? If my survival depends on it, I'm picking Manning. Brady, Montana, and Marino come right after that."

That's part of my method too, and I stick to my choice--one game, my life on the line?

I want Joe Cool...unless the opponents are the Lawrence Taylor Giants, I want Joe Montana. Period.

If I can't have Montana, I'd want either Brady or Elway, it depends on the day, the field conditions, and other factors (ie, if I can't have Brady AND Belichick, I might want to take Elway instead, as B&B are arguably the best QB/coach tandem ever, between them, Lombardi/Starr, and maybe Montana/Walsh and Staubach/Landry, those are the best QB/coach tandems in my opinion.)

If I got Peyton or Unitas, I'd be happy too...

But just a bit more nervous given Peyton's record in the postseason and the fact Johnny Unitas played before specialized defenses.

Its ridiculous that none of you guys have Anthony Calvillo on your lists. Damon Allen seems to have been overlooked as well...

We took Warren Moon from you, does that count?

"No, I'm sorry, he's right, Fasces...that's like ranking the greatest poets of all-time but having no clue who Chaucer is."
Well its a good think I don't know who Chaucer is :P

"If I can't have Montana, I'd want either Brady or Elway, it depends on the day, the field conditions, and other factors (ie, if I can't have Brady AND Belichick, I might want to take Elway instead, as B&B are arguably the best QB/coach tandem ever, between them, Lombardi/Starr, and maybe Montana/Walsh and Staubach/Landry, those are the best QB/coach tandems in my opinion.)"
Well Obi, if it makes you feel better, I'd take Belichik with Montana then Brady without him.

"But just a bit more nervous given Peyton's record in the postseason and the fact Johnny Unitas played before specialized defenses."
That's really my point, Unitas is too old to be considered a GoaT. The league was so much inferior back then that if Unitas was 25 today, he probably wouldn't even make the NFL.

I'm almost in complete agreement with ckroberts. You can sniff at Peyton's playoff record all you want, but if I needed a qb to go out and win me a game, Peyton is my guy.

He is held to the highest standard out of every qb in the NFL today. For every other qb in today's game, just making it to the Superbowl is a big deal. But, for Peyton, only getting that ring is good enough. No one is ripping on Brady for losing in the AFC Championship game or calling him a choker. Now, I agree that Brady is a great playoff performer, and he has earned that right; however, I think Peyton's consistent greatness should also be viewed.

Finally, mobility should not be a factor when rating quarterbacks, unless it gives them a decided advantage like RGIII or Kap or Wilson. It just really doesn't matter. Great quarterbacks (e.g. Peyton, Brady, etc.) are great because they can avoid sacks without mobility.

Here is a pretty good article about Peyton Manning: http://www.footballperspective.com/peyton-mannings-legacy/

As Zach points out, and this article describes, Manning is so good that we forget how good he is. Just winning one Super Bowl on three trips feels like this huge failure for Manning because he's so all-world as a quarterback. I don't think you can really ever pick a "best" in a comparison like this, but he'd be the first player I'd draft in my all-time NFL team, and it's not even close.

The OP asked about Cam's Panthers, so I make a (for me, difficult) prediction: the best QB comparison for Cam Newton is going to be Dan Marino. Not that Newton is going to be one of the best quarterbacks of all time, but, he's going to be the best player on a mediocre team for the next ten years.

Ah ye olde days of warren moon. He was Seattle QB when I first entered Seahawks fandom.... Holy shit that was 16 years ago!

Bradshaw NEVER lost a Super Bowl....unlike the parade of losers you yobbos are sooooooo in love with.

.....and he called his own plays.

lol.

Regarding to space jam method, I don't know how anyone could pick Choking Manning.

At least when Brady lost the big game (twice) it was close. Brady also has more post season wins then any other QB in history, most post season yards and one of the best post season QB ratings.

Brady not only gives you the best chance of getting to the big game, but he gives you one hell of a good shot when you're there.

The Patriots with Brady have always been contenders, they've always gotten far and are (almost always the favourites, why? Brady and Belichik.

The Brady's New England Patriots are footballs version of Lebron James' Cleveland Cavaliers, a mediocre team who's deficiencies are obscured by their star player.

@Mapleleaf: Bradshaw played behind the best defense in history, as someone else mentioned, the most impressive part of Bradshaw's career was that he was drafted by the Pittsburgh Steelers.

"or every other qb in today's game, just making it to the Superbowl is a big deal. But, for Peyton, only getting that ring is good enough."
Wes Welker, who was accepted as one of the best receivers in the league when he played for New England wasn't even the primary receiver for Peyton this year.

Manning had the best O-Line in history (which granted also had their worst game of the season), and a top 5 run defense in the league. There are 5, maybe even 10 Quaterbacks in this league playing today that could have taken the Broncos to the superbowl this year, and I'm going to admit that I don't think any QB could have beaten the Seahawks this year, the fact of the matter is, Manning, like he normally does, saved his worst performance of the season for his last performance.

Dominating during the regular season is one thing, but some players and teams aren't built for the post-season, manning is one of them.

regarding this article http://www.footballperspective.com/peyton-mannings-legacy/
I stopped reading at this line
"He led his team to a Super Bowl victory. He began to reliably beat Brady’s Patriots."
Manning has lost 10 of his 15 games against Brady, Manning doesn't beat Brady, let alone reliably beat him. When an article starts spewing total shit, I'm not going to merit it by reading till the end.