Send every Zionist to hell !

Whoa, lets pump the brakes a little bit buddy.

rollerfiend's post is offensive on two levels. One is the rank antisemitism. The other is that infuriating thing people seems to do more and more these days where they put a space before the exclamation point!

it's far from antisemitic; not every zionist is a semite.

You're a moron.

is the truth is hard to deal with for you?

" You really just don't know much about either man. Look up what Sharon did in Lebanon and see if you still think Netanyahu is so much worse."

I did and I do, because Netanyahu's West Bank policy is completely hawkish, idiotic, and not only sinks Israel's chances diplomatically with the international community, it's fast-straining its tie to the US, which from Day One has been its biggest backer and arguably the one thing keeping it from an all-out Arab war (well, more all-out than the several wars it's already had to fight.)

I'm not saying Sharon was by any means a peaceful dove here...

He was nicknamed "The Bulldozer." Come on. He was a ruthless man, I said that in the title description.

But I think as a STATESMAN he was better than Netanyahu, and that the latter is setting Israel and the region down a path to another big war.

+1 obiwan, really both are merciless when it comes to the lives of their semite brothers, the Palestinians

"Send every Zionist to hell !"

...I'd normally comment, but Invictus beat me to it and his is better anyway, so +1 there, everyone just read his (and yeah, the space before the exclamation point IS annoying.)

"As PM he had a Nixon-in-China moment where he pulled out of Gaza entirely, but in his own words that was just a ploy to be able to gain the goodwill to annex the more important West Bank settlements. Netanyahu, on the other hand, is largely just allowing existing settlements to build bigger apartment buildings so their population increases. A higher population means they're harder to get rid of."

1. I know, and I think that's a big problem, making it hard for these people to leave, because if there's ever going to be a peaceful two-state solution, it's going to likely come with the West Bank-to-East Palestine making up most of that territory, so this is essentially a ploy to indirectly torpedo those efforts. By contrast, at least Sharon's ploy--while still a ploy--made Israel look better in the public view...pulling out of Gaza > diplomatically than settling the West Bank.

If either are going to screw the Palestinians over a bit (and I think Netanyahu may be worse than Sharon there in the end) then at least Israel has to come off in a positive international light somehow, or the consequences of an Israel with no allies will be dire...

Because Israel's powerful enough to put up one hell of a fight and they'll go every man and woman if they have to in order to stop another 1948-style attack...and what will the body count be this time?

2. I think the Nixon-in-China rhetoric was definitely a ploy, but could have had more positive outcomes if Sharon hadn't succumbed to a stroke...he succumbed at the height of his popularity...

Zionist is not equal to jew or semite. I want to make this point totally clear. I have Jewish friends who are anti-zionists.

Orthodox Jews against Zionism - http://www.nkusa.org/

I don't get it, obiwanobiwan. Sharon is great because he withdrew from some godforsaken corner of the Levant no one ever wanted, and Netanyahu's bad because he's maintained construction WITHIN the existing settlements Sharon started and never intended to ever give up? That makes no sense. You're just bending the facts to suit your preexisting opinions of both men.

"+1 obiwan, really both are merciless when it comes to the lives of their semite brothers, the Palestinians"

You may want to hold off on that +1, as while I'd like to see a two-state solution, 1. I'm a Zionist (albeit for political/cultural reasons and not religious ones...I think every culture should have a state, and 2,000 years showed just how badly the Jews NEED a state...whether or not that state had to be what is modern Israel and how that was a complete cock-up is another story) and 2. While they may be considered Semitic, I doubt you'd get many Jews or Israelis referring to Palestinians as "brothers" (and vice versa.) Doesn't mean I hate them...as with nearly other group on Earth that isn't "mine," I care about them insofar as they're fellow human beings and that's about it. What's more, the Palestinians and Arab States have PLENTY to answer for themselves (such as claiming they'd "drive the Jews into the sea" rather than equitably split the land into a two-party state the way the international community WANTED THEM TO before they decided to go for broke and, hey, went broke as Israel won the war with US backing) so while Sharon was ruthless...

That's in part because he was dealing with ruthless people on the other side of the table.

The whole Middle East is one cutthroat nightmare...

And perfect for a Diplomacy Variant, by the way, why don't we have one already, to go a tad off-topic?

"Zionist is not equal to jew or semite. I want to make this point totally clear. I have Jewish friends who are anti-zionists."

Antisemitism as a term was invented so European Jew-haters could justify their prejudice on grounds other than religion. Your wordplay on how other peoples are Semitic is just that: wordplay. Antisemitism has always only meant bigotry against Jews.

lets just calm the rhetoric. not everybody has to agree on everything--i am a jew and it is hard not to take some things personally but i would just say believe what you want and keep it to yourself---think of what we do on this site---the PM's of any country are only being DIPLOMATIC to bring the best situation to their country

Zionism ignores the right for Palestinians to exist, it is a racist ideology, that "has led to the denial of rights, dispossession and expulsion of the indigenous population of Palestine"

the denial of rights,disposition, and expulsion are things the jews have felt with for thousands of years..this doesn't just happen in the middle east it happened everywhere in the world---until some things inherently change its is going to continue to happen---unfortunitly it is the world in which we live---like or not

Invictus, explain how Orthodox Jews who are against Zionism, are then, according to your logic, antisemitic against themselves?

For the record, Semite = Jews, Arabs, East-Africans, and more.

I hope you can deduce what the word AntiSemite means.

Point that I'm trying to make? Jews and Arabs are the same race.

"Zionism ignores the right for Palestinians to exist, it is a racist ideology, that "has led to the denial of rights, dispossession and expulsion of the indigenous population of Palestine""

Zionism says Jews have a right to a state of their own in their ancestral homeland. I agree it's kind of a silly idea, but Israel exists now and just like every state it has the right to continue to exist.

As for the Palestinians, they have had great wrongs inflicted on them, yes. But Zionism does not preclude the creation of a Palestinian state. Even Netanyahu has committed to the creation of one, and it's hard to say he's not a Zionist. What's really going on here is you expressing your swivel-eyed hatred of Israel.

With respect, the Palestinians had nothing to do with the expulsion and oppression of the Jewish people in Europe.

But I agree it was an atrocity to treat them that way.

Invictus, Zionism has a goal to stretch its lands until the "horn of Africa". True zionists have no intention of creating a Palestinian state, because it would be on 'their' land! This explains the behavior of the Israeli govt in expanding settlements on illegal land, against International and even American pressure.

"I don't get it, obiwanobiwan. Sharon is great because he withdrew from some godforsaken corner of the Levant no one ever wanted, and Netanyahu's bad because he's maintained construction WITHIN the existing settlements Sharon started and never intended to ever give up?"

1. I never said Sharon was GREAT,
2. I'd rather a stronger word than "bad" for Netanyahu,
3. Yes, withdrawing from Gaza as a ploy > maintaining settlements in the West Bank as at least the former gave Israel diplomatic leverage and made the state look better in the eyes of the world, whereas Netanyahu is going out of his way, it seems, to conform the preexisting idea many anti-Zionists have of Israel of the tank-wielding Goliath bullies against poor, rock-slinging, David-like Palestinians (the irony of that flip-flop of Biblical symbolism should be apparent to everyone.) Sharon was shrewd enough, after a checkered career as a military man, to know Israel's path to peace isn't through showing off what a big bully it can be...he tried that as a military man and, as you've noted, not only didn't it always work well, but he wasn't particularly liked for it internationally OR at home. He figured out what David Ben Gurion knew from the start--the #1 trump card for Israel is and always has been its ability to gain and maintain diplomatic support, or at least finagle things so the diplomatic balance of power in the region is neutral. A retreat from Gaza, even as a ploy, worked because the political world operates on ploys, and that allowed Israel to court public favor for a while and look better next to other regimes in the region. NOW Netanyahu's throwing that away by making Israel appear to be a bully, fraying those all-important diplomatic ties...and for what? 1800 apartments in the West Bank? Weight 1800 apartments vs. diplomatic support in the US, UK, and France--three Security Council Members. France has always been hard to court and is now impossible, the UK has always been back-and-forth and could now trend negatively towards Israel, and even the Israeli-US ties are fraying because Netanyahu doesn't care about the peace process.

To throw morality out the window--

Sharon was a GOOD Machiavellian leader...Netanyahu's a bad one.

lets all be friends

"Invictus, explain how Orthodox Jews who are against Zionism, are then, according to your logic, antisemitic against themselves?"

Anti-Zionism and antisemitism are not synonymous, but blur together so much that if someone's one they usually are the other.

"I hope you can deduce what the word AntiSemite means."

I already answered this.

peace/salam/shalom to you ssorenn!

"Sharon was a GOOD Machiavellian leader...Netanyahu's a bad one."

No, it's still just that you've decided to hate Bibi and love Sharon. While the personal relationship between Netanyahu and Obama is awful, the ties between the countries on security issues has never been closer. While Sharon presided over and even PROVOKED the Second Intifada, Netanyahu has kept Israel stunningly safe even as Syria melts into anarchy and Egypt abandons its friendly policies. The West Bank has never been quieter than it is now under Netanyahu, and these talks with John Kerry could realistically produce a Palestinian state which doesn't even include the Jordan valley, an unparalleled victory for Israel.

By the same standards you use to prop up Sharon, Netanyahu should rise too. But since you've already decided he's an evil right-winger you refuse to acknowledge it. And I also notice you haven't addressed Sharon's actions in Lebanon, where he helped Maronite fascists carry out an unspeakably horrible massacre.

If you think that Israel should return their land to the Palestinians, then you also believe that an even greater land area should be returned to its native population that is currently occupied by a group with absolutely no historical ties to the area.

So return the United States and Canada to their native American Indian populations and kick all them foreigners out that took over. Put the countries under tribal Indian law and give everyone their that isn't an Indian the choice of living their as second class citizens or going back to where ever they came from. It not like white European settlers had the remotest ties to America before the occupied it and kicked the native population out.

"Zionism has a goal to stretch its lands until the "horn of Africa"."

http://www.troll.me/images/futurama-fry/not-sure-if-trolling-or-just-very-stupid.jpg