Gee...I feel so much better, now that Kerry has made such a thought-provokign statement. I'm sure the American-Trained General in charge in Egypt....IS LAUGHING HIS ASS OFF at Kerry...

Tolstoy I think you have a lot of people wrongly pegged on their Egypt opinions. I don't "support" the coup but I also thought it was possibly for the best, given what Morsi was doing. But at the same time, what the army is doing is atrocious.

It's not black and white.

Thucy....maybe this went unreported...so Morsi was killing people?

What Kerry really said:
I'm not overly-concerned about the loss of Muslim Brotherhood supporters.
I need to say something about the massacre without upsetting the Egyptian military as if truth be known we actually support them.
I'll think of a wishy-washy comment that says everything and nothing so everyone thinks I've got my finger on the pulse.
I'll think of a suitable vague term that sounds important but when scrutinized in this context means very little and so cannot upset anyone, something like 'pivotal moment' .......
Stick in a truism that no-one can argue with such as "The path toward violence leads only to greater instability, economic disaster and suffering." .... and just hope that phrase doesn't come back to bite me on the backside because we are of course ultra-violent.
There we go......perfect, OK guys, let them cameras roll.
Some say you get the politicians you deserve, surely no-one deserves this fool.

No, not that I know of. What's your point?

To be 100% clear I'm not on either side of the "debate" you are about to try to force.

And I also agree with Nigee that the US reaction has been morally weak, and my cynical side is completely unsurprised we would be so self-interested and uncaring.

I know you tend to be of the opinion that people are unable to care for themselves, but you do understand how that "Democracy" thing was supposed to work, right? People vote for a guy, he earns the right to rule for X number of years, then you have another election.

If you don't like what he does after elected, you just have to suck it up and deal with it, right? You DO understand that is how that silly "Democracy" thing is supposed to work, right?

So I'm curious...since clearly, given that the House of Representatives is majority Republican, the majority of residents in the US think Republicans should rule, do you think weshould have a popular military uprising in the US? after all, Obama has done little to nothing to fix the economy, more people on food stamps than ever, violence throughout the world and a loss of US prestige among nations...he can't even implement his own singular domestic policy success, but has to keep delaying it...he's a disaster by so many measures -- so he should be violently ousted and jailed?

"I don't "support" the coup but I also thought it was possibly for the best,"
"To be 100% clear I'm not on either side of the "debate" you are about to try to force. "

Thucy - yet again, the intellectually dishonest. "I think the coup was for the best...but I don't really support it...you can't nail me down on anything!!! ha ha!!!"

Just like, we're all responsible for our own actions, but nobody is at fault for what they do because society mad them do it...

Good god, man, is your entire spine...strike that...entire skeleton made of goo? Do you have the balls to take a stand on a single damned thing? Or do you seriously just drift through life pretending to be some vastly superior intellectual being who sees everything through these cowardly nuanced rose-colored glasses that we little peopel are just too droll to grasp....

I'm not trying to draw you in toa debate - becase we have learned that it is impossible to debate with someone who is so intellectual dishonest whenever he's backed in to a logical corner - it's easier to debate with my herd of kittens than it is to debate with you.

But yeah...I thought maybe it was possible you could take a stand. Guess not...coward.

There is not right or wrong here, Thucy - you can take a stand and say "Yes, the coup was good for such and such a reason" or say "No, the coup was a bad thing, because now you have established that in a 'democracy' the vote is only useful until the General decides it wasn't', and a terrible, violent precedent has been set."

"US reaction has been morally weak, " Haaaaa ha ha ha ha!!! Did you read YOUR reaction?!?!? lol Good god, that's hilarious!

I oppose what the Muslim Brotherhood stand for period.
However if I see massacres of unarmed civilians by a trained professional army I expect my govt to be unequivocal in their condemnation of the atrocity.
David Cameron, no balls mate, if you can't stand up against this slaughter because of religion or politics what are you worth as a human being, who wants this kind of person running their country, a shameful disgrace.

Well said, Nigee.

If we can live with what happened and ho-hum, yawn, kind-of-sort-of-not-like-it....then what the fuck are we doing with our military ANYWHERE in the fucking world. If people die in various places for various reasons...not our concern...

Ron Paul should be President - the ultimate isolationist.

I don't think it should be seen as isolationist just because the US govt withdraw military aid to countries, lots of countries don't attempt to gain political influence with a bribe of arms & weaponry and you know what, they seem to be doing ok.
Anything that reduces the increase in govt debt must be worth a try

Nigee - isolationist in this: If we don't care about civilians being killed in other countries (and we don't - what's the death count in Syria these days?) then let's stop picking one or two countries to fight endless, useless war in "because some people died somewhere" (after all, Obama said we can "absorb" another terrorist attack http://blog.heritage.org/2010/09/22/obama-tells-woodward-we-can-absorb-another-terrorist-attack/) - so if people dying isn't really that big a deal any more...then bring the troops home...all of them, permanently.

@krellin ... Ron Paul was the only one in this past election phase whose foreign policy made any sense at all.

@Nigee ... if there's still anyone that believes a word Kerry/Obama say, well, fuck em. They're idiots.

UPDATE - Slaughter in Egypt on-going.

http://hosted.ap.org/dynamic/stories/M/ML_EGYPT?SITE=7219&SECTION=HOME&TEMPLATE=DEFAULT&CTIME=2013-08-14-11-55-48

So how do you feel about the non-violent military coup now???

Dear kestas, you can now shut down the site. Your social experiment has worked. Krellen and Tolstoy actuall agree on something. Well played sir, well played.

I think it would be more shocking if Thucy and Krellin agreed on something.

Well, when Thucy finally has enough integrity to admit that a violent military coup to oust a Democratically elected government is a bad thing...then we'll agree on something. (And, let's be clear, yesterday and today are NOT the first deaths in this coup...the first murders were largely ignored...)

When Thucy finally agrees that women are equal to men and can succeed in life without the help of a man, we'll agree on something.

Egypt is just a big pile o mess right now. The situation would of been bad either way. Also, in certain fields the playing field does need to be equaled out between men and women because sometimes there is a gender bias. That goes for men in some fields as well like nursing.

never thought it was a good idea

"Tolstoy I think you have a lot of people wrongly pegged on their Egypt opinions." - no, I think I have them pegged perfectly. Specifically, I'm calling out goldfinger, Invictus, and bo_sox:

goldfinger0303 (626 D Mod)
New 3 Jul 2013
It's a step towards democracy. In the Arab world they seem to think "If the people voted me in, I get to do whatever the hell I want" which is what Erdogan and Morsi were doing. That is not democracy. The military is working to bring liberals, secularists, moderate Muslims and Christians all together in this process. That, I would say, is a step forward.

Invictus (260 D)
New 3 Jul 2013
"There's three threads about it..."

If you notice, my thread was started first.


It's too soon to say, but this looks incredibly promising. An organized, explicitly secular and democratic movement in the Middle East? Yes please!

bo_sox48 Online (1895 D)
New 1 Jul 2013
Kudos to the Egyptian people and, most shockingly but most importantly, the Egyptian military. Morsi is a terrible leader and hasn't even had a year but has certainly proven it already, and like Invictus says, no one has a clue what will happen. Nonetheless, I'd much rather Egypt turn into a productive, self-sustaining nation, run democratically (but not a USA puppet), than see Morsi pretend to care about the people and run a despotic fundamental-Islamist state.

No surprise that Bo had an aggressive anti-Muslim stance /*more objectivity, LOL) but not Goldy and Viccy also, shame on them for getting it so horribly wrong.

I'm happy to admit I thought the Egyptian army, well, had a moral standing. Too bad I was wrong, eh?

I guess fearing another despotic extremist government in the Arabian Middle East is "anti-Muslim" now. That's Nigee for ya. Good ol' Nigee.

When you say I'm good I assume you're being objective :-)

Morsi was so "despotic" he couldn't even purge the government, police, and military of the Mubarak appointees that surrounded him, let alone shut down opposition media, impose curfews, dissolve parliament, throw the opposition in prison, slaughter protesters, etc. (all things the coupsters have done since seizing power). And as for "extremism", it seems anyone anywhere who prays facing Mecca instead of Washington is inevitably tarred with that undefined slur.

Krellin your view is simplistic. What if a democratically elected government pushes through an authoritarian constitution?

It's more complex than democracy vs. not democracy. Which is why the violence in Egypt is so sad, because there are undoubtedly thoughtful, moral people on both sides. As there usually are.

"Krellin your view is simplistic" - that how he likes it, then the answers are easier :-)

"Morsi pretend to care about the people and run a despotic fundamental-Islamist state"

Another objective comment from the Jewish guy ..... total bullshit. This was nowhere near a despotic fundamental-Islamist state, nowhere near as say Saudi Arabia, you know our big allies Saudi Arabia. Don't make people bad guys just because they are Muslim, it just makes you sound ridiculous.
There were issues in Egypt .... now there are bigger issues as a result of the massacre. The army are not the solution, they are obviously the problem.

I don't think this is as simple as anyone here seems to be presenting it, I agree with Thucydides.

People do recall the major anti-Morsi protests in June right? How about the persecution during Morsi's first year of Coptic Christians? The general record of the Muslim Brotherhood on things like the killing of civilians?