I agree - also Bismark's "empire" lived on when he died - showing that it was well established and not just run by him. When the Kahn fell, the whole empire collapsed, which just shows it was his individual brilliance that had kept the whole thing together!

caesar is the greatest, people. his empire lived for thousand years after him without any real danger threatening it because he took care of them all. plus he was a great lover

Caesar is off the list or I would have endorsed him. I am doing a paper on his genius. He was the greatest tyrant who ever lived. That alone should count for something.

i kept voting caesar. but genghis. eh, whatever. i think greatness is more than the flashing vanity of glory. how well travelled are the roads a leader has lain down?

ummm... how is genghis' achievements a flashing vanity of glory compared to bismarcks?

At least Prussia had a military when he ascended. Genghis' army consisted of a bow, a pony and his 2 brothers.

the german state continues to have a huge pull on earth. the mongolian empire did not really last. within three generations those roads - both metaphorical and actual - had fallen out of use.

bismarck planned and held. Khan just pitched the WHOLE population against boarder guards the very eastern european empires put. He never lost a battle in his life, that's cus he never really fought an even battle. Even in the few times when he as outnumvered, he always had his mongolian horse archers to pepper the enemy heavy troops. His troops were always better trained and so the battles were unfair, especially when the enemy was a motely collection of god-forsaken old and sick so-called soldiers sent to defend a place where they haven't heard of and die of old age.
2ndly, Khan never really fought the true western european soldiers, which were the best at the time, especially the heavy knights on horses, which when at full speed, could put a lance in a persons gut and send him flying and hitting 10 more people. The furtherest his empire went was to Italy, where they met the Frankish and southern gothic knights. His ponies were no match for the well-fed, groomed and trained chargers of the knights.
3rdly, Khan won by using the 'WAGHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH!' tactic. He charged through the west, but was easily cut off, and his empire crumpled as soon as he bought it, which proves that his empire was based on a VERY WOBBLY base. Whereas Bismarck gained advantages through DIPLOMACY, lost very few to NO troops, and planned ahead, creating a great germany that was superior, and if Willy ii hadn't thown away, would have become a great, SOLID empire.

GO BISMARCK!!!!!!!!!!!!!

that's coz the german empire was formed in 1871, technically it was disbanded 47 years later. Later it had a minor resurgence lasting around 7 years (38-45) and was quickly dismantled and split in twain to be controlled as a satellite by 2 contesting powers. 47 years after Mongol Empires formation in 1250s, it was venturing into Eastern Europe and had vassalized Russia and Bulgaria. Soon after, 73 years after the formation, The whole of China was formally conquered.
So technically they bet with the maxim "never fight a land war in asia" and won.

In order to give a rough gauge,


Mongol Empire
1162: Genghis Khan born to a minor tribal chief (equivalent to maybe a landed knight?)
1174: Father is poisoned, tribe abandons him and his mother along with 4 brothers and a sister to the wolves. He is 12 then.
1175: After discovering his 2 half-brothers Bekhter and Belgutai were not sharing their spoils of hunting, rallied his other 2 brothers to confront them. Bekhter was killed and Belgutai remained loyal to Genghis for his life.
1182: Low point of Genghis, he was captured by his former allies. Convinced his guard to free him. Later the guards son becomes one of Genghis greatest generals. He is 20, and has no tribe or army to speak of still.

For the next part I will just cut and paste verbatim from wikipedia
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The Central Asian plateau (north of China) around the time of Temüjin was divided into several tribes or confederations, among them Naimans, Merkits, Uyghurs, Tatars, Mongols, Keraits that were all prominent in their own right and often unfriendly toward each other as evidenced by random raids, revenges, and plundering.

Temüjin began his slow ascent to power by offering himself as an ally (or, according to others sources, a vassal) to his father's anda (sworn brother or blood brother) Toghrul, who was Khan of the Kerait, and is better known by the Chinese title Ong Khan (or "Wang Khan"), which the Jin Empire granted him in 1197. This relationship was first reinforced when Börte was captured by the Merkits; it was to Toghrul that Temüjin turned for support. In response, Toghrul offered his vassal 20,000 of his Kerait warriors and suggested that he also involve his childhood friend Jamuka, who had himself become Khan (ruler) of his own tribe, the Jadaran.[9] Although the campaign was successful and led to the recapture of Börte and utter defeat of the Merkits, it also paved the way for the split between the childhood friends, Temüjin and Jamuka.

The main opponents of the Mongol confederation (traditionally the "Mongols") circa 1200 were the Naimans to the west, the Merkits to the north, Tanguts to the south, the Jin and Tatars to the east. By 1190, Temüjin, his followers and advisors united the smaller Mongol confederation only. As an incentive for absolute obedience and following his rule of law, the Yassa code, Temüjin promised civilians and soldiers a wealth from future possible war spoils.

Toghrul's (Wang Khan) son Senggum was jealous of Temüjin's growing power, and his affinity with his father. He allegedly planned to assassinate Temüjin. Toghrul, though allegedly saved on multiple occasions by Temüjin, gave in to his son[10] and became uncooperative with Temüjin. Temüjin learned of Senggum's intentions and eventually defeated him and his loyalists. One of the later ruptures between Toghrul and Temüjin was Toghrul's refusal to give his daughter in marriage to Jochi, the eldest son of Temüjin, a sign of disrespect in the Mongolian culture. This act led to the split between both factions, and was a prelude to war. Toghrul allied himself with Jamuka, who already opposed Temüjin's forces; however the internal dispute between Toghrul and Jamuka, plus the desertion of a number of their allies to Temüjin, led to Toghrul's defeat. Jamuka escaped during the conflict. This defeat was a catalyst for the fall and eventual dissemination of the Kerait tribe.

The next direct threat to Temüjin was the Naimans (Naiman Mongols), with whom Jamuka and his followers took refuge. The Naimans did not surrender, although enough sectors again voluntarily sided with Temüjin. In 1201, a kurultai elected Jamuka as Gur Khan, universal ruler, a title used by the rulers of the Kara-Khitan Khanate. Jamuka's assumption of this title was the final breach with Temüjin, and Jamuka formed a coalition of tribes to oppose him. Before the conflict, however, several generals abandoned Jamuka, including Subutai, Jelme's well-known younger brother. After several battles, Jamuka was finally turned over to Temüjin by his own men in 1206.

According to the Secret History, Temüjin again offered his friendship to Jamuka, asking him to return to his side. Temüjin had killed the men who betrayed Jamuka, stating that he did not want disloyal men in his army. Jamuka refused the offer of friendship and reunion, saying that there can only be one Sun in the sky, and he asked for a noble death. The custom is to die without spilling blood, which is granted by breaking the back. Jamuka requested this form of death, despite the fact that in the past Jamuka had been infamously known to have boiled his opponent's generals alive. The rest of the Merkit clan that sided with the Naimans were defeated by Subutai, a member of Temüjin's personal guard who would later become one of the successful commanders of Genghis Khan. The Naimans' defeat left Genghis Khan as the sole ruler of the Mongol plains, which means all the prominent confederations fell and/or united under Temüjin's Mongol confederation. Accounts of Genghis Khan's life are marked by claims of a series of betrayals and conspiracies. These include rifts with his early allies such as Jamuka (who also wanted to be a ruler of Mongol tribes) and Wang Khan (his and his father's ally), his son Jochi, and problems with the most important Shaman who was allegedly trying break him up with brother Qasar who was serving Genghis Khan loyally. Many modern scholars doubt that all of the conspiracies existed and suggest that Genghis Khan was probably inclined towards paranoia as a result of his experiences.[citation needed]

His military strategies showed a deep interest in gathering good intelligence and understanding the motivations of his rivals as exemplified by his extensive spy network and Yam route systems. He seemed to be a quick student, adopting new technologies and ideas that he encountered, such as siege warfare from the Chinese. Many legends claim that Genghis Khan always was in the front in battles, but these may not be historically accurate.

As a result by 1206 Temüjin had managed to unite the Merkits, Naimans, Mongols, Uyghurs, Keraits, Tatars and disparate other smaller tribes under his rule. It was a monumental feat for the "Mongols" (as they became known collectively), who had a long history of internecine dispute, economic hardship, and pressure from Chinese dynasties and empires. At a Kurultai, a council of Mongol chiefs, he was acknowledged as "Khan" of the consolidated tribes and took the new title Genghis Khan. The title Khagan was not conferred on Genghis until after his death, when his son and successor, Ögedei took the title for himself and extended it posthumously to his father (as he was also to be posthumously declared the founder of the Yuan Dynasty). This unification of all confederations by Genghis Khan established peace between previously warring tribes and a single political and military force under Genghis Khan.
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1206 formed from many differing tribes. Genghis proclaime Khakhan
1209 Forces surrender of Xixia
1215 Mongols capture Beijing, seat of Jin Empire (Northern China)
central to capturing beijing was the defection of Ming-tan, he put out all of the Jin's commanders plan on the table
1218: Destroys the Kara-khitai empire by fermenting internal revolt. This was because the emperor of Kara Khitai was a Naiman (not a khitan), and seizing this main weakness, managed to get the entire empire crumbling before they struck the final blow.
1221: Destroys the Khwarezmian Empire (present day Iran) after the Shah decided to kill 2 trade mission that he sent. This was the most brutal campaign (in terms of punishment Genghis meted out), and was the one that history remembers. The feat will only later be surpassed by ironically the Germans.
1223: Mongol Empire finally ventures into Eastern Europe, wins Battle of Kalka river.
1227 Genghis Khan passed away (he technically had around 20 years to continue his legacy)
1237 (+30 years after unification): Subjugates Bulgaria and Kievan Russia. Lasts until 1480, to give a comparison, in order for Bismarck to have done the same, Germany would have to stretch all the way into Mongolia and hold it until 2240 AD. They couldn't even get past the Somme.

The mongol state still exists today. It was at its largest extent more than 200 years after its formation by Genghis Khan. The german reich was born and split and reborn and split and reborn and its lasted 130 years

to bflynn,

I really had a great time reading your post, especially about the parts where the Mongols only won because they had greater tactics, better training and better diplomacy. It just wasn't fair.

Also i loved the part where you talked about an imaginary fiction whereby Mongols were defeated in Italy, instead of Hungary (ogedai passed on and they had to re-elect a new Khan)

And the "waaaghh" tactic should find its way into the art of war, with its descriptive and innovative explantion. in spite of the fact that the mongol empire lasted way longer than bismarck's reich did.

the mongols didn't win by diplomacy... but by brute force, and since were discussin DIPLOMACY, it could be expressed in trms of 1 sc to 17 scs...

i believe its hard to specify who ACTUALLY defeated the mongols, as part of the Mongols went to venice, and boarder lines often changed, AND that armies often had mercenaries of princes from all over the place...

bflynn,

you really are serious aren't you?
Which part of the post whereby i detailed how through diplomacy Genghis managed to unite the whole of mongolia into one tribe? He started off as a prisoner of the kerait, but managed to convince one single man who was guarding him to free him. And he built his empire from there. He always used diplomacy first, forcing empires to surrender and only waged war when they refused. This of course forced other countries to bow to him as vassals.

bflynn,

mongols never went to venice, they went to vienna, which is in austria not italy.
and even though you cannot specify who defeated the mongols(because the were only technically pushed out of europe, and other countries they counqured in the 15th centure), i can tell you the German reich was defeated in 1918, by a collection of allies.

I realise that he was a politician but i must say that i always thought that cicero would have made a magnificent diplomacy player....after all he rose to become consul of Rome four years before his great rival, gaius julius ceaser!

bflynn, I thought you were joking at first... =\

Genghis didn't use as much brute force as you say... in fact, after the horrible slaughter at modern day Iran, that fastspawn mentioned, the majority of his future opponents simply gave up, because he was so intimidating. Intimidation is a facet of diplomacy.

In terms of legacy, I bet you that more people would be able to recognize the name Genghis Khan and recount some of his major accomplishments than they would the name Otto Von Bismarck. No offense to the OP =P

But honestly, I still think Machiavelli would have fucked up the rest of those guys in a nice sit down face to face Diplomacy game. This guy was SMART. And smart in exactly the way Diplomacy players should be. Hell, he practically invented political science, and his work is probably the precursor to most of the European Diplomacy that followed him. In fact, one of the only official Diplomacy variants is based on Machiavelli.

Forget that Genghis convinced a jail guard. In a Diplomacy game, he would be convincing historic leaders every bit as conniving and ambitious as he was, and I don't really know if he could have passed the test against such great minds.

I do, however, think that Machiavelli could.

Actually, they're all dead - pretty boring Diplomacy game, huh?

chrispminis,

firstly i was just stating a single instance of one negotiation which he took very early on when he was 20. At this time, he had nothing, no tribe, no warriors.
To put this in perspective, if you were thrown in jail, could you convince the warden to set you free? Except that, in the kerait case, the punishment for setting him free in the morning would have been death if found, whereas for the warden, he would probably have to engage a good lawyer.

Another example of negotiations that Genghis managed at a slightly younger age was when he was 13, and managed to convince his brothers to kill his older half-brother. And after that convince his other half-brother, despite having killed his older half-brother to come over to his side.

How about the time, where he managed to get the Song dynasty (Southern China) to ally with his small mongolian tribe (prior to unification) against the Jin Empire (Northern China). The Jin empire got so unhappy they made him a prince.

hmm, i have a question. what happens when someone gets mad and shoots the translator? or when the time machine's computer crashes and no one shows up?

Well, they could be playing gunboat dip...
The hard part would be electing a gamemaster.

Ya know Bflynn- even when they reached Vienna it was the death of the Khan back in Mongolia which forced the general Sabodai to go back to respect the death of the Khan, and to participate in the general's council for choosing a new khan among the khagans (king- khan is king of kings)