I thought the game was really good. England could have been a hero and let us stop you.
I knew it was a big risk to try a Key Lepanto in a Gunboat game, but Austria didn't have to take it so personally. :-)

Game was interesting but also frustrating. I played cautiously to begin with and tried to keep good relations with both other western powers. Juggernaut had me scared so I tried my best to hold back the Russian. he did an excellent job defending all my attacks. I had worked myself into a position to really help the english in the north to take him down. At this very moment England stabbed me for Denmark (as I was showign a double support to his move). I figured he'd notice the supports, and also notice France's growing position and retreat and take the build I was offering in St. Petes. He didn't and it killed me. I knew the risks of the gamble. I also realized probably too late that my moves could have been shown as aggressive against him. I actually considered stabing him but opted to not for the reasons outlined above.

I am curious to hear twa's decision making process in that one.

Congrats Babak. A well-deserved win, that one was.

I haven't had much time for this site recently, but I will keep an eye on thsi thread. Although I do admit, I didn't pay much attention to the end game.

Not to belittle the achievement (*very* impressive win), but after my deep 30 second analysis, it seems to me that England handed you that solo early on. Bad, bad stab of Germany. That said, I suppose you needed to play it perfectly to execute and go from master of the West to master of Europe, and after all, virtually all solos are handed over in the end. Well done, and congrats to the Victor!

Also, Sarg, I am not sure what your goals were. I thought the key was pretty evident, why did you go all kamikaze?

Sigh. Yeah, I definitely made one huge bad decision early on, which I know and admit led directly to France's dominant position. I don't mind briefly taking you through the thought process, as I myself have obviously had plenty of time to consider the implications of it.

Basically, in Spring 1902 I had a huge opportunity. I had opened fairly conventionally, convoying an army to Norway and pushing a fleet into the Barents Sea. At this point it's fairly obvious to everyone that England is going to attack Russia for St. Petersburg. I recognized Germany was set up to go after Sweden and possibly Warsaw and thought... maybe attack Germany instead? I thought I could move A Norway to Finland, F Barents to Norway, and F North Sea to Denmark, and that by doing this I could set myself up to at least take Sweden with no problem, thus gaining a build so I would have two units to defend England with against France -- who, I promise, I did see building that fleet in Brest.

In the end I opted to NOT execute this plan and went for the more conventional approach: Ultimately pointless blunt force attacks on St. Petersburg for two moves. Unfortunately -- and HERE IS THE MISTAKE in case you were looking for it -- I now, in the Spring of 1903, decided to try the scheme I had concocted for the Spring of 1902. The error of this, of course, was that by now France was in the English Channel. I knew it was a huge gamble, and it was obvious it completely failed right away. That one move doomed me personally -- I lost London right away and was unexpectedly NOT bounced in Denmark and thus removing my fleet from the North Sea and cutting it off from England itself -- and it clearly doomed everyone else. For that, my apologies.

Now that I've rambled far too much, congratulations to Babak. Despite my one huge mistake, everyone else fought like hell and you still earned the win. Good game, all.

I just wanted to say, I was checking in on this game and France (who I guess was Babak) really did play beautifully to lock up that solo. That is all.

Congratulations Babak.
I will write later (at work atm)

Congratualtions Babak. Another very beautiful solo.

I loved to see you set up a stalemate line in 1907 in Germany and around Tuns, then smooth-sail to the end in 1913. From the looks of it, the rest of the board was just powerless those six years.

Well done Babak, strong convincing win. I'm glad the game was won (and by you) - a draw would have been a prosaic ending to a chaotic game.

As for the comments so far on my role:
Babak: "the Austrian stab of Italy when there was a clear RT Jugger."
KatelChase: "I knew it was a big risk to try a Key Lepanto in a Gunboat game, but Austria didn't have to take it so personally"
Lando: "I thought the key was pretty evident, why did you go all kamikaze?"

For me, the Key Lepanto was not evident and I think it's not only risky in a gunboat but foolhardy. There is no way for me to know if it is a Key Lepanto or just an Italian attack in Spring 1901. Yes, it was evident after Autumn 1901 when Italy tried to move to Serbia but I'm not a soothsayer and there was no way for me to predict that. Italy then followed up his 'Key Lepanto' by trying to move to Budapest but also moving for a traditional Lepanto in the south - these moves seemed chaotic to me - if Italy wanted to work with me he should have pulled out from my home centers as soon as his 'Key Lepanto' had failed.

As far as I was concerned, Italy's risky, reckless, foolhardy moves crippled me and ruined my chances in this high-powered game. With the Juggernaut in the east, France succeeding in the West, and an unreliable Italian partner, I felt there was little place for Austria to succeed in a traditional format and that I would be eventually squeezed between west and east. I felt that I was going down and as such would derive most pleasure from fulfilling that old Diplomacy maxim "if you can't survive, screw the guy that screwed you."

I hate EOGs, because I can't tell you what I was thinking in spring of '04. I
Lay turn by turn. Make m decision and move on. I'm glad England stabbed germany & then France stabbed Germany. That is the only reason I survived. Towards the end I was pissed at England for moving to wales instead of Clyde. I gave France norweign sea & then was stuck. I needed Clyde to support me out, didn't happen.
I thought if I get rid of England, France may draw. He got to many pieces & it was over. Had England not retreated to Pete, I would have had another fleet going into GOB.
Nice win, to bad the other 6 could not coordinate well enough to stop you.

I think Babak should pony up 3,500 for a re-match game. I refer to this game as the damn it game. Every time a phase ended, I was saying damn it.
Tro great game as usual. My pleasure working with you. You don't see to many juggernauts in a gunboat. I'm done, great game guys & again congrats on the win.

I would also like a rematch. In almost all the high-pot gunboats I have played, I have been assigned Italy or Austria - it's so grating. I would love to get a Western Power for once in one of our games!

Great comments... and indeed I thought it was a great game played well on all sides. a few observations to share:

from my own perspective, the most important thing in the early game was England's move to Den. I can imagine how he thought he'd get 2 builds to counter me, and his units were too far flung to come back in time... but I still think it was a mistake. specially since it was in the spring and not in the fall. I did guess correctly with Lon instead of Wal, the first of I think many good/lucky estimated guesses on my part.

The big turning point for me, besides the German stab which netted me 3 builds in one turn, was the decision to move to tyl instead of supporting italy into ven and to forgo Lvp. as France, after you lock up the middle, Tunis is the biggest pain in the neck, and I really did benefit from the bounce in Ion, without which I could not have gotten it.

indeed though, as basvan said, after Tunis was taken, it was mostly smooth sailing. the English fleet behind my lines was a bit worrisome, but I'm glad I won the psychological fight on more than one turn with my only bad guesses being the move from Ech to Lon (though had he taken Lon, the solo would have been out of the question I think) and not bouncing him in bel.

Two things that I think did help me out, Turkey deciding not to take out Italy when he could have thus allowing him more coordination and Russia not taking Nwy with a fleet earlier so he could get an opening for a 2nd fleet when I'd all but retreated from the north. fact is that in Gunboat, its just far too hard to coordinate with 4 players to stop the solo, and I think I took maximum advantage of that on multiple occasions in the last few years.

One last thing... I think I destroyed like 6 units in that game =P dealing with less forward units is a huge help, so I'd certainly suggest that as a tactical goal for other GBers out there...

Thank you all for a great game and a feisty fight... the RT alliance was pitch perfect the entire time and you guys did a fabulous job together.

ps. I did not notice the Key Lepanto until it was mentioned in this thread... but now it makes more sense.

"Thank you all for a great game and a feisty fight... the RT alliance was pitch perfect the entire time and you guys did a fabulous job together."

I think that was partly helped by me as Austria turning completely away from the Russian-Turkish front to fend off Italy - which also makes me disagree with what you termed "the Austrian stab" - from my perspective I was defending myself.

well, I guess from your perspective, indeed you were fighting italy. but from my perspective, it seemed clear italy meant to work with you to stop the RT... its always about perspective.

anyone up for another 1000 point GB?

Sarg - no judgment from my side. Your initial reaction is well understood. When the Key failed I did support Trie to hold and disbanded the threatening army, but at that point I'd pissed you off to much. Austria is hard enough without adding revenge to the mix. I should have stuck with the standard Lepanto (I did manage to get an army into Syria.
Props to Troodonte who could have taken revenge on my Lepanto and tried to wipe me out quickly, but instead saw my value. I attempted to telegraph the "shift the fleets up the coast into Tus" plan to you around Autumn '10 but again coordination is rough. Getting a Fleet into Tus with a shot at Lyon during that time was one of the only two ways I could see stopping Babak.
The other way to build the wall would require that Russia built fleets up north around Autumn '11 but England retreated to St. Pete. I think a Fleet up there would have at the least let us hold you off a bit longer.
Great game - I'd be willing to play again in a few weeks, but I'm under 500 right now so give me some time to get somemore via some live gunboat :-)

I've created the 9th game for the series in threadID=718044 - hope you guys can join.

I thought the key was demonstrated by the move to apulia vs. a follow-up to trieste. But I guess everyone sees things differently in these games.

I still don't understand why England stabbed me. And after he did why he continued to attack em rather than work against the French who were taking his home centres. I back IKE's opinion of this being the "damn it" game. I was doing well at the start but things fell apart so fast.

To answer a few extra issues I've seen raised, mainly by IKE:
First, the Liverpool Fleet moving to Wales instead of Clyde. In Fall 1907 I did move Liverpool-Clyde. The French F Clyde bounced Russia in the Norweigan on that turn and none of us moved anywhere. After that move France built another fleet in Brest, and in all honesty I assumed F Barents would just keep bouncing France in the Norweigan and I would never actually get into Clyde. It looked like it would be a couple of moves at most before France would be able to take Liverpool with support, so I decided to try my luck moving south to force his F Brest to take defensive action instead of moving right at me. My ultimate goal by this course of action was to try and squeeze through the French line and to make it to Holland, even for a turn, so I could bounce Kiel, which would allow Russia to take Berlin. My hope was that this would make it far less likely that France would be able to solo and that he would then grudgingly vote for a draw. Obviously my Fleet didn't quite make it to Holland, however.

Second, the retreat from Norway to St. Petersburg towards the end of the game. Yes, I was well aware that by doing so I would be preventing Russia from building a fleet that might help hold off France. But I was also still stinging from Russia's betrayal of me in Scandinavia, supporting France into Sweden in Fall 1910, which seemed to me to be somewhat futile as a gesture of appeasement... and I obviously stood to gain absolutely nothing from the game at that point anyway, so yes, I retreated to St. Petes. A decision made out of momentary bitterness, perhaps, but what is done is done.

All in all, it's been a learning experience. I'd join the new one if I had 1000 more points to spare... Give me some time :)

Lando, I moved back to try to defend against France the very next move after I stabbed you. Unfortunately it was too late and I was already out of position.

Trust me guys, I am well aware that this was far, far from my best game.

Babak is the only who played well. Everyone, including myself, could have played better. 1 last thought on the game, a key lepanto? I don't think that is possible in a gunboat!!!! Austria will look at this as a stab & not a move against Turkey. Just my opinion.

Thank you IKE. I thought it was ridiculous as well.

Finally I have time for some words.
I can tell you that my feeling is of great frustration. I say this because the solo was obvious since babak took tunis. It was a matter of time.

From the beggining.
I got Turkey…Great!
S01…I’m in Black sea, Italy is in triest… GREAT!!!
1902…Italy is trying to go Lepanto… who cares?…There is a perfect Jugg!
By S04 I was considering myself in a very strong position… perfect coordination with Russia, Austria gone, 3 fleets entering the Med and one in the black sea ready to go south or eventually stab Russia, depending on what happens in the rest of the board…
Suddenly it’s hell!!!
England decides to give everything to France and Germany moves everything east leaving bel, hol and munich for who? FRANCE!
S05 I’m in Tys and france is in wes and gol… Here I made a bad decision… took tunis instead of bouncing Wes. I allowed france in tys and now the fight was ALL ABOUT TUNIS. France had Germany under control and berlin and munich were his in short time… so Scandinavia and stp were also achievable with patience. Tunis was the key center, the 18th center. In this issue I assume, I may have defended badly or haven’t been able to coordinate with Italy that well. A bounce in Wes by 1905 would probably allow me a better position to defend that center…
When I lost tunis I tried to take Gol and babak risked tunis to bounce me in tys which was a good shot. From here, I think that no matter how I coordinated with Italy…it was over.
Even if I did make the fleets thing with Italy (I honestly had those orders in but in the end I thought that you wouldn’t follow…) I don’t think it would be enough.
I really have trouble in my mind to understand the English (but also the german) moves in 1904…
This game really illustrates how someone can be so confident in a game as I was in S04 (“I’m surely in a draw who knows if I won’t have a shot at a solo!”) to a situation of being unable to stop someone else’s solo.

Babak: congratulation! You played a perfect game. Well done.
IKE: Always a pleasure to play with you :)

I have to say that I think that I have never coordinated so well with Russia (while playing Turkey) as it happened in this game, even in standard Diplomacy games :)

@ awkward - honestly... this: "My ultimate goal by this course of action was to try and squeeze through the French line and to make it to Holland, even for a turn, so I could bounce Kiel, which would allow Russia to take Berlin" was what I was MOST afraid of. and I expended considerable effort to prevent it from 2-3 seasons before it happened. it was really my ONLY fear. the south seemed stable enough and after I got my 5th fleet down there, I knew I would lock it up without a problem even if I had to fall back to the mar/spa s GoL line.

I think the only thing you could have maybe done differently is either a) going to Lon instead of bouncing me in Lvp that one year so you could make a move on bel/hol before I solidified my southern position. or alternatively, b) to have tried to make better use of the fleet in sweden (moving to ska or bal to cut kiel)... in fact, it would be a huge sacrifice in that you might have lost swe or nwy, but if I HAD lost berlin, I could not get it back so it would have been a draw.

also about the Russian stab of England near the end... if you loo at my orders for the turns before, I supported both Turkey against Italy and Russia against England basically showing (well faking) that I was willing to take a 3 way. I confess I did not expect either to take me up on it so I was extremely surprised when I got into Sweden with Russian help that turn =P

@ Troo - you are absolutely right about Tunis. that was the key (most often is for a French or English solo). the turn I went to Tys, I thought about bouncing you in GoL, but my calculation was that the ONLY thing you could have done to take (and keep) tun would be if I went to GoL and you didn't!!! going to tys isolated your fleet which I later destroyed and had you taken tunis, then I'd be in TyS with a retreat available to me so I could take it back the next turn! at least that was my calculation.

bump.

I guess no one else has much to add.

Probably not but let's keep bumping the thread for another week so everyone can share in the glory that is Babak ;)

=)

can't say I'm not more than a bit fond of my own efforts in this one.

@Sargmacher&IKE: I don't understand why you are so depreciative of the Key Lepanto. To me, the sginal is obvious (if not too obvious). Two reasons:

If Italy wants to attack Austria, he moves Ven-Tyr, Rom-Ven, to follow up Tyr-Boh, Ven-Tyr. Or he moves Ven-Tri, Rom-Ven. So when he moves Rom-Apu, Ven-Tri, he is either a complete noob, or he wants to play a Key Lepanto. Considering this was a 7000 point game, I think we can rule out the former.

Second, if you are Austria, you are out of options. You've willingly let Italy into Trieste, and now you should hope you're not getting screwed over. You can fight with Italy, but that fight is hopeless. Italy's already advanced on you, and RT will gladly see a pointless struggle around Trieste. So you have to go for the Key Lepanto.

Now, If Italy decides he wants to kill you (which he certainly can at that point: Ven S Apu-Alb!), you're dead. But then again, in a gunboat, where Italy plays anti-Austria, you're dead anyway. If you do not trust Italy's intentions/expertise, you shouldn't have opened Tri-Alb!

In other words, assuming all players are infinitely intelligent, I believe this opening assures a Key Lepanto will be played. And we all agree a KL is the best that can happen to Italy in Spring 1901.

Long story short: I believe Sargmacher's Fall 1901 move was the mistake that cost him the game.