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Carpysmind (1423 D)
31 Dec 09 UTC
Game Play Question
If you have one unit moving to “bounce” while you have another unit holding the moving unit what happens?
18 replies
Open
StevenC. (1047 D(B))
31 Dec 09 UTC
A New Game.....
http://webdiplomacy.net/board.php?gameID=17890
9 replies
Open
Crazyter (1335 D(G))
01 Jan 10 UTC
Live Game New Years
anyone wanna play live now 5 min phases with talking? Committed players only. No CDs please!!!
5 replies
Open
curtis (8870 D)
01 Jan 10 UTC
New Gunboat 5 pt 5 min game... come join
http://webdiplomacy.net/board.php?gameID=17944
6 replies
Open
SpeakerToAliens (147 D(S))
01 Jan 10 UTC
Happy Easter and all the best for 1982... C U at the bonfire next week and don't forget your swimsui
Hope you all have a Happy New Decade.

P.S. Dear "year zero" pedants: I know! I know! It's a year early. I don't want to hear it.
1 reply
Open
denis (864 D)
31 Dec 09 UTC
Happy New Years!!!
As the time of the new years travels across the world post here!!!!
10 replies
Open
orathaic (1009 D(B))
31 Dec 09 UTC
Climate change?

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/science/nature/8430276.stm
see inside...
orathaic (1009 D(B))
31 Dec 09 UTC

So, it seems we have a number of smart people here. It also seems fairly easy to accept that humans have had some affect on the global climate (what exactly that effect will be is difficult to say, but a change in climate patterns is almost guarenteed, and any variation to a complex self-balancing, oscillating system will result in some change)

So, let's assume we will not have enough arrable / irrigated land to produce enough food for 6.7 billion people. It makes sense that people will fight over limited resources. (limited water, as flooding contaminates drinking supplies with fertilisers and other chemicals usually stored safely out of the ground water system, drought also limits the water supply, so it doesn't matter whether you have more or less rainfall in any given area the most likely effect is a reduced supply of drinking water)

In a world of globalised trade, and an internaitonal monetrary system the rich countries will always do better, they can buy whatever they want on the intermarket and even if within those countries the price of food triples, even if the lowest earning 20% of people are hungry and the lowest 2% are starving, the middle classes will have no trouble giving up all the luxuries, i-pods, batteries, expensive new things, they will not starve. The poor countries wil not be so lucky. And as they are seperated by large geographic areas they will not be able to attack directly the rich countries.

Trade will be hit by piracy - as you can see in the gulf of Aden, when you a state fails there is little interest locally in stopping piracy. (Where is our current food supply grown, how is it transported?)

What should we do? In the current day the standard responce of most governments to any destabilising threat is to fight for the status quo (except perhaps the US who is perfectly happy to alter the status of other countries if it is enough to keep their own nation stable) The major activities of the UN are mostly aimed at encouraging stability through food assistance and health programmes ~ the big headline news is always about emergency aid, but they World Food Programme does more than just that (see: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/World_Food_Programme)

The UN very specifically is NOT able to prevent militrary conflict, even if that is in it's mandate. Only when China, Russia, France, Britian and America all agree, AND there is enough support in terms of troops and money can the UN do anything about a conflict. At present the troops and money are not sufficient to deal with several minor conflict in africa (especially when they burst into larger events)

The only reason I can see this ever changing is that the powers that be are fighting for their own continued food security. (if they manage to work within the UN system of conflict resolution) At that point you have Rich countries paying for troops to ensure food leaves poor countries where people may be starving by proping up the local governments - in effect those local governments are composed of those rich enough to not personally be starving.

(Please see the 'great famine' in Ireland in the 1840s, as an example when a english government limited relief efforts because "the judgement of God sent the calamity to teach the Irish a lesson") - a demonstration that people don't care that much about those who are 'different' (whatever that means, but i'm sure it includes any simple tribal/national groupings...)

How can we best deal with this global change? The harshest of individuals will encourage a malthusian cathastrophe - which we have managed to avert through the use of tehcnology for many decades now - you might advise a purely capitalistic approach - which includes chariy (as we currently allow via the World food Programme)

I would argue that this will result in a complete breakdown of our current system. (and be used as a proof of the failure of capitalism just as the fall of communism was used as proof of capitalism's superiority.) I know it's really easy to predict the collapse of civilisation - and normaly we humans are more adept than given credit, managing to avoid such a collapse. I could list civilisations which have collapsed - but it is more useful to look at how civilisations have managed to overcome things which people claimed would cause their collapse. Or the biggest challenges which have been faced - like the fall of communism, or the great depression (lessons from which have been used to avert it's repeat in recent years)

So smart people, please contribute your own analysis/suggestions.
TheGhostmaker (1545 D)
31 Dec 09 UTC
The world is far from capacity for food production. The reasons why anyone starves in the world today are twofold:
1. Political mistakes managing the economy- best example is the Common Agricultural Policy. This causes arable land to be left fallow in Europe, prices to be kept artificially high and surpluses to be dumped on third world markets, driving African farmers out of business, so they stop farming too.
2. A lack of income. People who haven't a job cannot afford food, even if it were on sale.

That is today. In the future, I reckon it will remain so. To say the same think in other words: your original assumption is wrong.
TheGhostmaker (1545 D)
31 Dec 09 UTC
Not sure if you want me to explain why I think that or not, because it does kinda push the topic away from the Opening Post right away.
orathaic (1009 D(B))
31 Dec 09 UTC
You are assumping that fertiliser can be used. There is almost a tripling of food production by correct use of fertiliser (in a temperate climate, and the same techniques can not neccesarily be used in tropical climates)

The problem is with fertiliser costs, which are dependant on oil prices. So not withstanding the fact that there is some room for an increase in food production at present; can you tell me how the change in the price of food has compared to the rate of inflation?
orathaic (1009 D(B))
31 Dec 09 UTC
assumping is a great non-word.
TheGhostmaker (1545 D)
31 Dec 09 UTC
I don't think you can really say that coal and natural gas shortages are going to have a major impact on food prices in the near future, and you certainly cannot say anything about the distant future. The oil price is barely relevant to fertilisers.
TheGhostmaker (1545 D)
31 Dec 09 UTC
And you must consider the fact that some other practise changes are significant, for instance more dedicated biofuel use.
TheGhostmaker (1545 D)
31 Dec 09 UTC
I am also willing to refute the claim that climate change will see a great impact on the worldwide yield.
warsprite (152 D)
31 Dec 09 UTC
A phosphate shortage in the next 30 to 50 years as current sources are played out, may complicate issues of fertilizers and cost.
orathaic (1009 D(B))
31 Dec 09 UTC
The effect on worldwide yield may be minimised, but that doesn't mean there will be no effect. Water will likely be more important than fertiliser when it comes to total food production, but the poor can't afford to pay higher prices - and yes i think i was wrong when i linked fertiliser costs to oil costs...

Also you're right people without jobs can't buy food; but i disagree about the Common Agricultural Policy (CAP) - at present it is not being used to over-produce and dump on the market in developing nations - It is being used to keep land fallow while keeping the money paid to european farmers high enough to keep them working as farmers (which is good for food security) So yeah, once the price increase the CAP wouldn't be needed, but you can't simply rely on supply/demand to feed everyone. There is a limit to the total food production.

Dedication of land to biofuel is an issue, but in a 6-12 month period you can switch food from fuel-crops back to food-crops (if you're smart about which fuel-crops you are growing) However if weather effects half production in any given area there will not be a year to do anything about it.

Short-term borrowing will get us past the first food crisis; but there is a limit to how much you can ramp up food production. (% arable land, water availability- the energy cost of desalinating water, and the energy cost of producing fertilizer) I think the water issue will be important in some countries in the next decade, and if i'm right it will become a global issue in the 20s.
orathaic (1009 D(B))
31 Dec 09 UTC
FYI, i can't find decent figures on gas production/prices, nor food prices or fertilizer production.

I don't think recent food prices would be particularily useful, because the Chinese responce to the last year of decreased external demand was to increase domestic consumption - so their middle class is eating, and therefore increasing demand for food - and when the largest population in the world decides to increase it's consumption the world markets are affected (but i'm not sure what the effect is...)
TheGhostmaker (1545 D)
31 Dec 09 UTC
Prices go up, that's the effect :)

I referenced biofuel to point out that there are extra resources available to us.

RE the poor, I'm inclined to believe that, where political strife isn't hindering development and where harmful aid efforts are not doing the same, they will be richer in the decades time you are talking about, meaning that they don't see their ability to buy food damaged.

With reference to the CAP, the every detail doesn't matter- it is inflating food prices and reducing food production, removing it would reduce the food bill for everyone, including the poor.

I feel that the cries of "Apocalypse" are, as is so often the case, majestically overstated.
C-K (2037 D)
31 Dec 09 UTC
"1. Political mistakes managing the economy"

Are you sure it's a "mistake"? I'm not. I believe these things are all carefully planned and orchestrated for specific purposes. All of which are financially motivated.
orathaic (1009 D(B))
31 Dec 09 UTC
Yes, but someone in my position could claim that those prices were rising due to decreased production. So looking at the price is it hard to tell what effect was due to chinese economic policy and what was due to other influences - but i still can't find decent figures.

The fact that it takes 6-12 months to grow a crop and only 3 weeks to starve a person kind of negates the usefulness of extra supply. Oh and I think there has been a reduction in food production as bio-fuel is becoming more profitable (which does depend on oil prices...) The CAP may inflate food prices in Europe, that also means there is more money for 'developing' nations to earn from selling on European markets which would increase food production - if there are no tarrifs. Inflated food prices in Europe do increase the food bill for europeans, but i think most European countries provide their poor with enough social welfare to keep them fed and healthy. (though you might argue that the social welfare costs are crippling to those governments, that's not really the issue here) And In principle i am against farmers being paid to grow food which is then destroyed - I hope the CAP has been altered signifigantly in recent years.

I do agre that cries of 'Apocalypse' are often unrealisic, that doesn't mean a catastrophe isn't possible. I am looking at how best to deal with this issue - even if western/rich/developed countries are not serously affected. (and i'm not sure about that, in a worst case senario no amount of money can be spent to create instant food) However assuming we had a global free market run on pure capitalist ideals. Then serious disruption to food supply would leave the poor to starve - which i would personally object to - is there a better way to manage the global food production/world food programme?
orathaic (1009 D(B))
31 Dec 09 UTC
@CK: sure they can be described as mistakes by those of us who think it's a mistake to let your people starve while personally profiting. You can call it whatever you like.
TheGhostmaker (1545 D)
31 Dec 09 UTC
biofuels aren't profitable- as a general rule the energy input costs as much as the energy output is worth. It requires government stimulation to turn a normal crop into biofuels.

"Then serious disruption to food supply would leave the poor to starve - which i would personally object to - is there a better way to manage the global food production/world food programme?"

But we know from history that whenever we start to manage economies they start to fall behind. Sure a serious disruption to food supply would leave the poor to starve, but if you try to manage it, you will find that the poor will starve in the years of plenty.
orathaic (1009 D(B))
31 Dec 09 UTC
No - the energy input is not the same as the energy output - biofuel processing is not efficient at the moment, but the conversion of solar energy to complex organic fuel is converting a free source of energy into oil - which is energy stored in a really useful state.

The reason bio-fuel isn't profitable is that oil prices are so low (cause you only have to pump oil out of the ground instead of growing it) at present it is neccesary to jump start the bio-fuel industry with government funds so there is no oil shortage when oil production fails to keep up with demand. (and in brazil they are merely competing for regional power with their neighbours as brazil doesn't have the same onatural oil resources as venezuela)

Histroy shows that government policy has in many cases completely messed up.

When chinese provincial governors were rewarded based on the production they claimed to have achieved, they lied about the figures, this lead to more food being taken from the farmers than would have otherwise been the case.

A single example doesn't mean it is impossible to manage an economy. Saying others have failed so let's not bother trying is a rather defeatist attitude.

I can imagine a smart way for the government to manage all of a countries infrastructure (manage and run) by renting out that infrastructure to companies which compete with each other for market share - thus still controling the economy, and how it develops without losing the benifits of competition among companies - there has to be specific reasons why previous attempts to manage an economy failed, and a smart person can avoid them.
TheGhostmaker (1545 D)
31 Dec 09 UTC
For corn, as used in the US, you get 1.3 times the energy out as you put in. That is pathetic, meaning that biofuel is more expensive than the energy used to make it.

If you were really serious about reducing oil consumption you would be proposing we drive pneumatic cars. A French design car running off compressed air has, for instance, a range of 300km and costs about 2 cents for 1km of driving at present electricity prices.
warsprite (152 D)
31 Dec 09 UTC
A lot of biofuels are poduced at the expense of food production. Not something you want to do if there is a food shortage. The use of biowaste such as corn stalks instead of tilling them into the ground depletes the soil. So biofuels are only a very limited option.


19 replies
`ZaZaMaRaNDaBo` (1922 D)
31 Dec 09 UTC
Hardy Partiers
Live game. gameID=17937
2 replies
Open
klokskap (550 D)
31 Dec 09 UTC
Last Live Game of 2009
5 minutes/phase, Anonymous, Gunboat. If this sounds like your kind of fun, join up!

gameID=17932
6 replies
Open
surf (171 D)
31 Dec 09 UTC
Rules Question
I convoyed a unit from Edinburgh to Norway. Russia moved an army from St Petersburg to Norway. The fleet in North Sea doing the convoying was unattacked. I thought and still think that this is a standoff, yet the computer moved the unit into Norway from St. Petersburg. Am I wrong? Can someone give me a reference indicating why? Thanks.
4 replies
Open
dave bishop (4694 D)
31 Dec 09 UTC
Riddle/maths question
20 decks of cards
one random card drawn from each deck.
What are the chances that exactly one pair (no more or less) comes up?
Could you find an equation to find chances of exactly n pairs coming up?
25 replies
Open
hellalt (70 D)
31 Dec 09 UTC
Fuck 2010!!
gameID=17935
anon wta 10 D 24hrs/turn
1 reply
Open
Kompole (546 D)
31 Dec 09 UTC
Thursday Live
Live game: 5 min/phase, WTA, anonymous, global chat.
http://webdiplomacy.net/board.php?gameID=17934

All welcome!
1 reply
Open
TheGhostmaker (1545 D)
31 Dec 09 UTC
Player of the Year 2009
Since I have a dump of game data for Ghost-Rating, and don't have to spend hours sifting through it any longer, I've compiled some Player of the Year awards for 2009. See inside.
40 replies
Open
BigZombieDude (1188 D)
29 Dec 09 UTC
Are variants likely on this site?
Im looking through GoonDip and played the practice 35 player WWIV map and wondered what the scope is to get 1 or 2 variants on here....probably alot of work, but im sure there are personalities here that would help :)
26 replies
Open
The_Master_Warrior (10 D)
31 Dec 09 UTC
New Game. 48 Hr PPSC All Chat Allowed 95 (D) buy-in. Anonymous players
http://webdiplomacy.net/board.php?gameID=17930
0 replies
Open
John.Galt (0 DX)
31 Dec 09 UTC
Live Gunboat!
gameID=17929

Join up people...
0 replies
Open
zrallo (100 D)
31 Dec 09 UTC
Live gunboat?
Anyone up for it?

http://www.webdiplomacy.net/board.php?gameID=17925
3 replies
Open
BarrackObama (368 D)
31 Dec 09 UTC
Multi-check please....
Could you have a look at Italy / Turkey / Russia in this game. http://webdiplomacy.net/board.php?gameID=17915

There was an awful lot of coordinated moves and very few in game messages. Most of them would have been directed back to me.
4 replies
Open
Gnome de Guerre (359 D)
31 Dec 09 UTC
Search for User by Name
http://goondip.com/profile.php?userID=220
DCRS is his name on Goondip; I want to see if I can find this user (and other users by name) on this site. Check the only game he is in on goondip.com; he's the only player who hasn't entered moves. I fear he is from 4chan, and has forgotten all about it.
2 replies
Open
Triskelli (146 D)
31 Dec 09 UTC
Sitter needed
What he said. I'll send you a temporary password in a pm
4 replies
Open
Merirosvo (302 D)
31 Dec 09 UTC
A no-talk account
I would like to create a no-talk account. I would stop using this account (once the last game is over) and create an account where I would join normal games but would not participate in diplomacy. The point would be to see how well I do and find out wether it is the skill of diplomacy or the skill of knowing where to move without any talk that makes you win.
92 replies
Open
Kyrios (100 D)
31 Dec 09 UTC
Live game
http://webdiplomacy.net/board.php?gameID=17918

Need 2 more!
0 replies
Open
Barakuda (100 D)
31 Dec 09 UTC
LAST LIVE GAME OF THE YEAR JOIN!!!!!!
http://webdiplomacy.net/board.php?gameID=17913
2 replies
Open
general (100 D)
31 Dec 09 UTC
NY Eve Live
http://webdiplomacy.net/board.php?gameID=17911
2 replies
Open
Alderian (2425 D(S))
31 Dec 09 UTC
1897 variant needs 2 more players
WTA, 10 point buy-in, 24 hour phases.

http://goondip.com/board.php?gameID=280 (Cut and paste entire url to get there. Must be registered on goondip.com to play.)
1 reply
Open
rhino86 (4191 D)
30 Dec 09 UTC
What are the necessary skills to be world class at playing diplomacy?
Care to share the nuances you have learned?
38 replies
Open
Rule Britannia (737 D)
31 Dec 09 UTC
new game- NOT a wta!!!! for all those who like their classsic diplomacy.
6 replies
Open
Thrawn (119 D)
31 Dec 09 UTC
Fast games keep dying...
Allright, for all the people who want to play a fast game, I've set one up. This one has a 30 minute pre-game phase, so there's enough time for people to join.
1 reply
Open
BusDespres (182 D)
31 Dec 09 UTC
2 MORE PEOPLE!
http://webdiplomacy.net/board.php?gameID=17904
0 replies
Open
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