Pit them against each other. =)

I agree with EricHerboso, insofar as the way *not* to ever beat them is to post comments like this. At the very least this will eliminate your chance of convincing them to ally with you.

Anlari, the truth has come out, we must let everyone know that we are actually brothers, separated in early infancy - one dropped to Estonia, one to Cyprus. Just to prove our pureness as a diplomacy players we have to commit ceremonial suicide in our games or at least acting as bunch of madman, recklessly stabbing each other once in a while.

Could I remind You Blues Explosion that You have been attacking me from the first move onward there is not many powers I can turn to if You are French & I'm English. I have offered You peace & cooperation I think at least twice, which You have agreed & then stabbed me the turn after - what are You expecting me to do?

Thanks guys for your replies, shame I won't be able to use your them now when Rait saw them. :)

I didn't say metagaming. I just said that when those 2 are in the game Rait will win and anlari will in most cases be 2nd. Maybe they are 2 best friends, who knows... I don't care about my game with them, I play for fun, I just feel sorry for all those guys who think that Diplomacy is 7 players game with every man for himself...

High Rollers Autumn 1916
Game won by Rait (6685)
Pot: 2746
Players:

dbrandao (367) as England
Zxylon (667) as France
daniele (0) as Italy
anlari (3341) as Germany: 12 units
dangermouse (3568) as Austria
Locke (1475) as Turkey: 3 units
Rait (6685) as Russia: 15 units

---

One creative game Autumn 1912
Game won by Rait (6685)
Pot: 231
Players:

Rait (6685) as England: 18 units
Photon (100) as France
lopez (177) as Italy: 1 units
pilling (100) as Germany
anlari (3341) as Austria: 2 units
Baseballbob (100) as Turkey
Locke (1475) as Russia: 13 units

---

Diplo :) Autumn 1915
Game won by Rait (6685)
Pot: 154
Players:

Seleucus (127) as England: 6 units
Locke (1475) as France
dolphingirl (100) as Italy
Iceman (100) as Germany
shaddow (536) as Austria
Rait (6685) as Turkey: 18 units
anlari (3341) as Russia: 10 units

---

summer1901 Autumn 1910
Game won by Rait (6685)
Pot: 154
Players:

Rait (6685) as England: 19 units
eoin (360) as France
Melko (319) as Italy
anlari (3341) as Germany: 11 units
_GSC_ (113) as Austria: 1 units
piyade (5) as Turkey
tulkas (100) as Russia: 1 units

---

Awsomeness Game Autumn 1937
Game won by Rait (6685)
Pot: 154
Players:

figlesquidge (669) as England: 12 units
DragonZord (40) as France
TrojanJared (100) as Italy
wendelion (100) as Germany
Rait (6685) as Austria: 17 units
Chris Cross (100) as Turkey
anlari (3341) as Russia: 2 units

As far as I recall, I stabbed him and almost won in the 'Awsomeness Game', but he persuaded Figlesquidge to return after he had announced that he quit the game :'(

About the Russia-France example, it has nothing to do with cooperation - I missed two turns in the start.

I think the main reason is that I don't tend to stab just for the sake of it unless I have something to gain, and Rait rarely gives me the opportunity. Probably vice versa too.

Please also realize that Rait has a quite high win ratio (70% last I was told? can't be bothered to check) and the games he has played with me are only a small proportion.

No anlari, you didn't stab Rait in any game, especially not in Awsomeness Game. There were 3 equally powerful nations; Rait (Austria), figlesquidge (England) and you (Russia).
At one point you decided to give your supply centers to Rait so he could win. You do similar things in all games with him. Why? Are you paid per his win?

http://phpdiplomacy.net/board.php?gid=333

What happened was that I stabbed Rait after Figlesquide announced that he had quit the game (Spring 1935?), only to have it turned around as Rait did his trick and persuaded Fig to return to the game and fight me. As far as I remember, I was so annoyed with him returning after announcing his quit at the time that I told him I wouldn't play any other games with him and quit the game myself. Happy?

And no, I am not being payed per game. Didn't you hear what he said about us being long lost twins? Duh.

Still wonder why people end up teaming up against you? Because of this - I was just trying to make conversation, and you managed to alienate me from the very start of the game.

21 Oct 07 Hey, what are your plans?
21 Oct 07 i'm planning to win this game. how about you?
21 Oct 07 I was talking about short-term plans.
21 Oct 07 Or should I just assume that you're teaming up with England against me?
21 Oct 07 we have such close borders and you want me to tell you my plans? you should first give, then ask for something.
you didn't ask me for alliance vs england, i guess that means that you have it with him.
21 Oct 07 You take what is said too seriously. I was just trying to start a conversation and exchange of information among us, which might just become an alliance. Maybe I was going to ask, maybe I was expecting you to ask. But don't expect anyone to come up with any offers when you talk to them with such hostility. Jeez.
21 Oct 07 i wasn't hostile.
you gathered 2462 points with "Hey, what are your plans?"? maybe that works for some dummy, but i ain't one.

With that said, I'm not taking part in any more of this pointless bickering.

Anlari, since you don't put who says what, am I left to assume your comments are those with capital letters?

They're allied in the game I'm playing in and have been from the start it seems. (not that there's anything wrong with that in general, though if it's a repeated pattern it's a bit unfair.) On the other hand, I've been allied with Dangermouse and BoG75 almost the whole time as well.

TOgilvie - Yes. Sorry. Nice observation though.

Will you (anlari/Rait) stop talking about our game. I already told you it is not about that, although it was funny to see anlari letting Rait to take his supply center (Holland) so he whouldn't have to disband. That can only be seen in metagaming (I'm not saying that Rait is anlari)...

I posted 5 finished games with those two, which resulted as 5 wins by Rait, 3 second places by anlari and 2 anlari's survivals (just so he could keep his points).

Here are 3 active games where they team as well:

http://phpdiplomacy.net/board.php?gid=1943

http://phpdiplomacy.net/board.php?gid=1966

http://phpdiplomacy.net/board.php?gid=1978

They by now gathered enough points to be able to enter in any game. When they do, they team, win and split the points... Next game!

I'm also not about to prolong this debate about me & anlari being long lost brothers, just pointing out some 'statistical' errors and truth stretching:

* Blues, You brought out detailed results of 5 games I have won, so this suggest that ...? ... I have won at least 5 games? I could assume that You wanted to show that there are 'plenty' of games where me & anlari have played together and landed to the 1st or 2nd place, but in this case You should have removed the game 'One creative game' from Your list, where anlari ended up with 2 units & I was allied with Russia (Locke); also the game 'Awsomeness Game', where anlari once again finished with 2 units & I won the game together with figlesquidge (due to the stab by anlari, which he explained before). So, congratulations, this leaves You with 3 games (out of 41) which I have won together with anlari, thus You have proved that at least 7%!! of my games I have won in alliance with him. Terrible.

* It is worth mentioning that I have participated together with analari in 10 games total (out of which 4 are still ongoing - the number of ongoing games at the moment is rather big due to the relatively high bets & thus limited number of players who would be willing to participate in these games, for example I have also 4 ongoing games with dangermouse). This means that only in 30% of the times, when we have participated in games together with anlari, I have actually allied successfully with him & won the games together with him.

* More statistics:
- There are 13 games I have played together with Locke;
- I have played in 11 games together with dangermouse;
- I have played in 10 games together with Salmaneser;
- There are also 3 games I have won, Locke being second;
- There are 2 games I have won together with lardboy as second (only 1 less than with anlari!!! this must mean something!!)
- etc.

So, perhaps You would also like to point out also the horrible conspiracies I have had with other players? Why stick with anlari!

:D Blues ... about that retreat to Holland - I don't see how anlari could have prevented this (You say he let me to do that). I was simply nice enough to ask if I could do that. And the point is? You attacked me in Belgium, dislodged me & I should have disbanded because You could get away unpunished?

... more corrections: Blues says: I posted 5 finished games with those two, which resulted as 5 wins by Rait, 3 second places by anlari and 2 anlari's survivals (just so he could keep his points).

Most of those games took place during the period when there were not any points system implemented ;) So the last part of Your observation doesn't make any sense.

Haha, ban them xD

I remember that myself, Rait and anlari all joined this site at around the same time.

We were in some of our earliest games together i think and even back then it was obvious that they were both solid players, however i never saw anything to suggest that that they were in some way metagaming...as you can see from the statistics i have played a fair few games with them and i would say that they would have been mad NOT to ally in most of those situations.

As Raits statistics show i have played many games with him and we have also been allied many times....in most instances to mutual advantage! I happen to know (as much as anyone can know anything online!!) that both players possess a killer instinct and i daresay that they would not hesitate to stab each other if there was a real advantage in it.

And as Rait said....i think there have been more games when i have been the second place 'lackey' to Rait than anlari anyway!!!

And as a final point, there are players whom i would join a game just to play against, and because Rait and anlari are both such good players the games they are in are always extremely enjoyable! This friendship, if indeed they are friends!, should be celebrated because it provides the most interesting games on the site!!!

The game with me - that was not unfair play. At no point was it worth him stabbing Rait until near the end. That game was amazing, we had soo many long stalemates-would have held them all had it not been for a holiday in Florida!

Regarding Holland: It was either Rait taking it then (which I couldn't prevent if I wanted to) and keeping my western flank secured, or you taking it next turn along with the rest of Rait's SCs and me being toast afterwards.

I am not sure what you would do, but I would rather sacrifice a SC and keep the ally guarding my western flank in game than lose it anyways along with my home centres in a few turns.

Rait, I knew you looked like either an Estonian or Cyprusian... Cyprusite? Cypruser?

Cypriot.

It is a fact that these two have been working together in just about every game they play together. It might be because they are familiar with each other from past games but that doesn't give away the fact that there will be no chance of pitting them against each other in the early stages of the game.

Just because they work together often doesn't mean that you can't pit them against each other. It just means that you have to make a better case for one to ally with you than with the other. Consider it a diplomatic challenge. :)

Or, you can go the other route and assume that they will ally. Convince the other players of the game that historically they ally and will likely do it again (it doesn't even have to be true as long as you can get them to beleive it), then band them together to fight the threat. Don't just complain about them allying, beat them at it.

Maybe anlari is just a really good player, and Rait is just slightly better. They do both tend to win a lot of games they are involved in individually...

I had a recent experience in a game (room 101) where Rait and another good player, MarekP were in an eternal alliance. I tried to do my best to break them apart, I could not, and I lost. They won lots of points. Rait (Russia) had a big advantage over MarekP throughout the game - It was obvious he would win if the alliance lasted.
My conclusion: Probably Rait is very good at convincing others to do a long alliance with him, and accept strong second. Stone me, but I for one can usually be convinced about that ;)

haha my hand goes up there as well!

I've been in a game with Rait (Bling Bling)- he accused Rus and France of metagaming where I couldn't really see any correlation. He also tried to coerce me (I joined late as Italy, he was Austria) into an alliance with him when he had nothing at all to offer. I think people just have to get round his diplomacy and ignore the fact that he's no.1, because apart from that being confirmation of him being a serious player, that doesn't mean he's going to win every single time.

Diplomacy is fair and no one has a starting advantage, assuming that no metagaming is going on. People should look at that game and decide their moves and alliances according to the situation, and not of having the world champion, back exposed to you entirely, talking you into an unprofitable alliance.

I'm not complaining about Rait winning. I except that he's a good player. But people shouldn't be intimidated by a reputation.

So in answer to Blue explosion's original question: yes why not? Be careful, talk carefullly, do the right things and you'll get somewhere at least.

One thing more for Rait as a personal note. I did not appreciate you calling me names like Stupid behind the computer screen. If you lost Bling Bling then accept it with dignity. I did nothing wrong and you would have taken the same oppotunity in my place. Also don't be so quick to call people metagaming because in diplomacy everyone needs strong alliances to win, just like you and anlari. Don't complain if things start to go wrong.

Rait, splitting points with best friend should be enough, there's no need for insults, this is just a game.

Blues - If you have a problem, even if we are doing as you say, which we aren't, you have to deal with it. Don't join any games that involves me or Rait. Anything will help but complaining.

Like many people who have played for a while, I have suspected metagaming or favouring friends in MANY cases. In fact, one of the people that accused me & Rait of metagaming in this very thread is letting another person who has the same creation date and is playing together with him in all the other games take over his SCs while continuing to bring me down with him.

Do I suspect that he is metagaming/favouring a friend? Hell yes.

Would I bring up his name on the forum? NO. What if he is not? I would not be only wrongly accusing him, but also slandering his name.

Ever heard of defamation? That's what you are doing right now, thank god unsuccessfully.

Blues, what the heck are You talking about??

i think that metagaming is just an excuse for losers. how else would you define it? :-) as for rait & anlari being the same person... hahah haha

ahahhahahahaha