i don't know why there is such a fuss about holland, if the sea swallowed it up, would anyone care?

Low-tier trolling, Brad.

Hauta, it's a bad reason for suspicion, because it could be applied to just about any political action. Most political actions benefit *some* third party in one way or another; if you suspected collusion for all of them, you'd be wrong most of the time.

Similarly, anything that increases tension between the Middle-East and Europe empowers the European right, but if you suspected collusion on that basis, you'd be wrong most of the time.

So this situation doesn't raise suspicion of collaboration between Wilders and Erdogan significantly above the background level of suspicion--which, if I'm not mistaken, is quite low.

Ha ha! Low tier! Ha ha! Now that is funny. Low tier of the Low Lands! Or Pays Bays as the French say.

Leth, I don't care about the distinction between complicity and collusion. Conflict in Netherlands between ethnic-Dutch and immigrant-Turks serves both Wilders and Erdogan. Keep your eye on the ball and stop being such a snowflake.

As someone from the Netherlands I think Brad's comment is very offensive.

And Hauta: even if Wilders/PVV gets the most votes, he will never be able to create a coalition. Noone wants to work with him. VVD and CDA tried in 2010 and regret the experience.

perhaps, but the Nazi's started as a fringe party and certainly the National Front has become more mainstream in recent years. So, good news for now, but we got to be careful.

Hauta, you haven't made a good case for either complicity *or* collusion, so of course the distinction doesn't matter. And if you can't handle even this much disagreement without slinging names, you're the snowflake in this conversation.

Well I guess one person would care.

Leth, I laid it out already. Sitting here in my footy-pajamas, I'm not going to be able to point to a smoking gun as I am often left off the distribution list of memos that go between Wilders and Erdogan. Do you think they'd publish anything like that?

You laid out the case for mutual benefit, Hauta. Then you handwaved everything else. That you find your own assertion difficult to support is not my problem.

Leth, choke on this:

http://www.economist.com/news/europe/21718706-minister-had-planned-rally-rotterdam-referendum-give-recep-tayyip-erdogan-more

Amid the day’s diplomatic wreckage, one person who celebrated the outcome was Mr Wilders. In a tweet, he applauded the government’s move to block Mr Cavusoglu, and claimed credit for applying the needed political pressure: “Nice. Without the PVV this decision never would have been taken!” The confrontation is certain to improve his prospects in the election. Another politician who will benefit is Mr Erdogan. The Turkish minister for European Union affairs, Omer Celik, noted on March 11th that the Dutch ban increases the chance that the referendum will pass. “We know how the Turkish people react to this type of event,” Mr Celik said. “Because of what the Netherlands has done, our people will move towards voting ‘yes’.”

Wow, you've certainly made me choke on more evidence of mutual benefit. Good job!

I agree that the dynamic of far-right parties feeding off of each other even when they oppose each other is extremely worrying. Frankly, I don't know why you're making such a big point of trying to prove something more than that without any evidence, or getting so pissed at me for not buying it.

I thought this was what normal earthlings did in their non-productive waking hours. Transmission terminated.

Your erroneous assumption my dear Hauta, was to assume that Letho was a normal earthling. I see he has more Uranian tendencies.

Brad, far be it from me to judge your fixations, but they say more about you than about me.

You judge all of the time Letho, don't say you don't. You have yourself all up there projecting your pseudo-superior attitude as if you really know what is going on. Your facts are borrowed as are your opinions. You have no real opinion yourself and are pretty clueless about the reality of your existence. But hey tolerance, right?

I *do* judge all the time. Never said otherwise. But what you choose to fixate on is your business, as long as you don't pretend it's actually mine.

Nor do I claim to know what's really going on. Most people know very little about what's really going on. That hasn't stopped you from frequently making unsupportable and readily falsifiable generalizations about society or history or politics (or posters). If anyone's pretending here...

There's nothing pseudo- about my superior attitude towards your lazy provocations and half-baked assertions. What's bizarre to me is that *you* don't take the same attitude towards that shit. You can do better than that. You *do* do better than that, and I respect you when it happens. But why should I have respect for things that you post where you clearly don't have any respect for them yourself?

^Leth burns Brad. Ouch!

Hauta, like I said, Wilders doesn't benefit from the situation. If this has any effect on the polls, then it will decrease the number of voters that think that the current government is too soft, and thereby decrease potential votes for Wilders.

Also, I have to second the posts of ksako8.

Brad being offensive? That's a shock. But no, Leth, Brad can't do better. He is rather challenged in certain areas, which he compensates for with nastiness.

According to the latest polls, the party (VVD) of the current prime minister (Mark Rutte) seems to benefit from the situation. Today we vote.

And after counting the votes, Wilders seems to have not benefited. A lot less seats than polled before this upheaval.

Good news. At least most of the Dutch have sense.