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beniliusbob (0 D X)
27 Sep 15 UTC
How does PPSC work?
I thought that in PPSC you always, no matter what, hey points according to the number of SCs you control. But someone in game told me that if you draw, all the points are split among survivors.

Can someone clarify for me?
trip (696 D (B))
27 Sep 15 UTC
(+2)
That someone is right. If the game is drawn, the points are divided evenly among the players taking part in the draw.

PPSC doesn't work because it encourages players to lose rather than draw. Play WTA.
Jeff Kuta (2066 D)
27 Sep 15 UTC
(+1)
In PPSC games:

If result is a win for one player, all points are split by number of supply centers between the victor and survivors.

If the result is a draw, all points are split evently among the draw participants.

It's a screwy hybrid with screwy incentives.

Don't play it.
Octavious (1705 D)
27 Sep 15 UTC
(+1)
PPSC is quite good when you're just starting and would quite like to keep a few points for your efforts despite failing to get a decent result. In reality, though, unless you are one of those players who actually value points and play games with large point entry fees, there is no real difference between PPSC and WTA.

trip (696 D (B))
27 Sep 15 UTC
(+1)
If one values GR over points, it makes a huge difference.

ben: GR stands for Ghost Rating, which is a ranking system created by a player named TheGhostmaker, and is based on results over point gathering.

http://tournaments.webdiplomacy.net/theghost-ratingslist/ghost-ratings-by-category
lorelei_s (1096 D (S))
27 Sep 15 UTC
(+1)
The rules regarding points are all here:

http://webdiplomacy.net/points.php

The "Draws" section answers your specific question.
IshmaelGuantanamoIV (100 D)
27 Sep 15 UTC
(+1)
Idea- a point distribution system where:

Upon soloing, the victor takes 100% of the points.
But upon drawing, survivors get points according to their supply centers. This solves the annoyance of small powers getting equal shares in a draw, but also removes the incentive to eliminating powers.
Octavious (1705 D)
27 Sep 15 UTC
@ trip

How does it make a huge difference? You will only notice any difference at all if you've specifically joined a game with a large pot, and you only ever join those if you value points in the first place.
Yaleunc (11052 D (B))
27 Sep 15 UTC
Octavious - I'm pretty sure the Ghost Rating calculation is very different between PPSC and WTA with respect to solos. In WTA you basically get all of the combined participants' GR (minus your expected value) whereas in PPSC you at most get 18/34 of the combined GR (again minus your expected value). I.e. Soloing a WTA game improves your GR much more than soloing a PPSC game against those same opponents.
Jeff Kuta (2066 D)
27 Sep 15 UTC
It depends on what meaning you ascribe to "value."

For me, the main value of points is as a barrier to entry for new, inexperienced, or untrustworthy players. If you've worked hard enough to earn 300-400 D, then that means you've got some skill. This works for me because I prefer to just create a game with a higher point threshold and reasonable RR rating and let anyone join. Takes too much time to put out the word and invite people.

More points is kind of nice, but at a certain point they don't matter. Hoarding points isn't an indication of skill in the game, but skill in acquiring points.
trip (696 D (B))
27 Sep 15 UTC
@ Oct: A person who has a high percentage of strong seconds in PPSC will (should) have a lower overall ranking than one who has a similar percentage of draws in WTA.

trip (696 D (B))
27 Sep 15 UTC
More points is kind of nice, but at a certain point they don't matter. Hoarding points isn't an indication of skill in the game, but skill in acquiring points.

That being said, most of the highly ranked players have high point totals, but that is to be expected as having positive results (point gains) is how the get that ranking.
Octavious (1705 D)
27 Sep 15 UTC
Back when I first started cheaters would flock towards high point games. A live game with a buy-in between, say, 50 and 100 D had a high likelihood of having cheats in. Games with 5-10 point buy ins were almost always clean and fun. Games with over 100 D rarely had cheats, but were almost always full of people who believed in the "play to draw" philosophy.

Because of that early learning experience, I have always favoured low point games, and in the happy world of low points games you notice virtually no difference between PPSC and WTA. When nobody in your game cares about points, nobody has any interest in how the points are divvied up.
trip (696 D (B))
27 Sep 15 UTC
OK, I see what you're saying now. For the difference of a point of two there's no reason to throw a solo. My question would then be why set the game up as PPSC if it only makes sense to play WTA?
A_Tin_Can (2244 D)
27 Sep 15 UTC
GR (and whatever we replace it with when we integrate an improved ratings system) will always follow the same incentives as the scoring system used.

I think there's a lot of confusion between scoring and ratings - here are some definitions that are useful:

Score: The outcome from a game. This tells you how good a particular game result is under a particular scoring system. On webdip, we (currently) have two scoring systems - WTA and PPSC.

Rating: Rating tells you how good a particular game score is for a particular user. Did a newbie get eliminated vs the best on the site? Well, that's not a bad result. Did the best on the site and get eliminated vs a bunch of newbies? That's a pretty terrible result.

Our scoring systems are very easy to model (ignoring points for a moment): In WTA, you score 1/(number of winners), where "winners" includes draw participants. You score 0 otherwise. PPSC scores 1/(draw size) in a draw, or (number of centres)/34 in a solo. You score 0 otherwise. Modelling the score this way is what GR currently does.

Webdip currently has two scoring systems (PPSC and WTA) and two rating systems (points and GR).

No matter what the rating system used, you should be able to maximise your outcome from the game by maximising the outcome from the scoring system.

I would very much like to add another scoring system sometime (say WTA for solos, but draws divided by centre count somehow). We've discussed adding sum-of-squares scoring in the leadup to the World Diplomacy Championship next year - since WDC is using sum-of-squares next year. Sum-of-squares has the WTA-in-a-solo but centre-count-in-a-draw mechanic. However, a real concern is that we don't want to fragment the player base too much.

We're definitely planning to have a better rating system fully integrated, though. Who knows, maybe one day we'll remove points entirely (*ducks*)

~webdip dev team lead
A_Tin_Can (2244 D)
27 Sep 15 UTC
(+1)
Also, this question comes up so often that it makes me think we should at least consider renaming PPSC (assuming we don't remove it in favour of another scoring system). It's clearly misleadingly named for new members, and I don't think that's a good thing.

As an aside, I think webdip is pretty unique in the use of PPSC scoring - I'm not aware of another site that uses a mechanic where there are second places in the event of a solo. I don't think it's at all common in the FTF world either.
diplomat61 (233 D)
27 Sep 15 UTC
I think PPSC creates an incentive to keep playing rather than NMR. If you are in a poor position, with no chance to win, you might still get something from PPSC but not WTA.

The same effect applies to replacements. At the moment I am in a PPSC game as a replacement. There was never any chance of winning but I should get something from being a survivor. I would not have taken this on if it was WTA.

Points don't matter to me per se, but they matter to me because without them I cannot play.
JimTheGrey (968 D (S))
27 Sep 15 UTC
(+3)
It's probably blasphemy to think this, let alone speak it out loud, but it's pretty clear to me that whomever designed the PPSC mechanism misunderstood the concept of center-based scoring.
@Jim: I was thinking the exact same thing!
beniliusbob (0 D X)
28 Sep 15 UTC
Thanks for the explanations everyone!

PPSC does seem odd, now. I honestly thought it meant "points per supply center," so it's interesting to learn that it's really "points per supply center if not drawn." It's interesting because it works out for losers, is irrelevant for drawers, and is bad for winners. Huh. I'll probably look to join more WTA games now... maybe it will make me more bloodthirsty... and/or get defeated more.

As an aside, I'm pretty new at this but I like the points because I can call them "D-points" and that makes me laugh. (I actually thought of them as "D-coins" originally, which is even better.)

@lorelei_s : Not that I didn't believe your in-game explanation, I'm just the kind of person who likes to validate the facts. :)


19 replies
orathaic (1009 D (B))
28 Sep 15 UTC
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diplomat61 (233 D)
28 Sep 15 UTC
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rbeyers (100 D)
28 Sep 15 UTC
rules question
suppose Russia is trying to move to Bulgaria from Rumania (1 army). At the same time Turkey is trying to move to Bulgaria from Con (1 army). At the same time, Austria is trying to move to Bulgaria from Serbia with support from Greece.

will the unit from Serbia make the move?
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abgemacht (1076 D (G))
24 Sep 15 UTC
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^
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23 Sep 15 UTC
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orathaic (1009 D (B))
27 Sep 15 UTC
(+4)
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https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=O9ak89FwYeI
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Valis2501 (2813 D (G))
18 Sep 15 UTC
(+1)
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Dutcher (1143 D)
26 Sep 15 UTC
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http://www.webdiplomacy.net/board.php?gameID=167007
Autumn 2004 Russia F Ukr - Pol ???
How is it possible for a fleet to move from the Ukraine to Poland over land?There is no mention of any water way in the map variant or elswhere. Impossible move in my opinion. It would seem you are now allowed to move fleets from the black sea to the baltic???
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abgemacht (1076 D (G))
22 Sep 15 UTC
(+5)
Hot off the presses! webDip Highlights Episode 1!
As promised in threadID=1296424 Expert commentary from Valis and CSteinhardt and an interview with The Czech! Stay tuned to the end for a special announcement from the Editor In Chief!
gameID=167595
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=seK0GGDQP_M
Enjoy!
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orathaic (1009 D (B))
15 Sep 15 UTC
Socialism vs Communism
where did these words come from, and how have their meanings changed?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=U-1k_MDB4J8
Discuss.
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backscratcher (459 D)
22 Sep 15 UTC
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Could someone explain the implication of Draw vs. Cancel to me. I believe i know, but want to make sure...
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mansfeld (165 D)
26 Sep 15 UTC
Fleet in memphis
I noticed that the ancient game will permit me to build a fleet in Memphis. Where could it move to if built?
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TrPrado (461 D Mod)
25 Sep 15 UTC
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Thucydides (864 D (B))
25 Sep 15 UTC
Should Neil Armstrong have put a US flag on the moon?
http://www.bbc.com/news/science-environment-34324443
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Eadan (454 D)
25 Sep 15 UTC
(+1)
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Can anyone confirm that 5-minute games do not start with the addition of the seventh player but instead start when the sign up period was originally scheduled to end?

Thanks.
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Gobbledydook (1389 D (B))
25 Sep 15 UTC
What's happened since last year?
Hi guys...
What's changed? The first thing I saw was I had like 20 finished games with unread messages, and there seems to be some new features, can someone explain
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abgemacht (1076 D (G))
25 Sep 15 UTC
(+1)
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What is going on with the GOP? How many more of their own feet do they have to shoot?
14 replies
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Disillumination (100 D)
24 Sep 15 UTC
(+1)
Newbie Question
Hello, me and some office mates have just discovered this massively awesome game but we're quite intimidated by the level of skill that people have.

Is it possible to create a game with less than a full team of players, such as 5 man in the regular map. Or playing 10 man in the world map that says 17 players?
20 replies
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CommanderByron (863 D (S))
26 Sep 15 UTC
IM BACK! BIT CHEEZ!
Bit Cheez is the online currency of the common mouse. Been terrible being so disconnected since my computer broke. Happy to be back. No autographs.
5 replies
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abgemacht (1076 D (G))
25 Sep 15 UTC
(+2)
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7 replies
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ag7433 (1987 D (S))
23 Sep 15 UTC
(+1)
R.I.P ag7433
November 2008 - September 2015
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Frost_Faze (102 D)
25 Sep 15 UTC
(+2)
Need a German player for a 15min/round
Germany is doing well and has strong alliances, however he needs to go right now and would love for someone to take his place.

gameID=167813
0 replies
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Dannyux (282 D)
20 Sep 15 UTC
(+2)
Alguém Português?
Boas :) Ainda há por aí alguém português, ou brasileiro até, que ainda jogue webdiplomacy? Estou a pensar criar um jogo só de portugueses, se alguém estiver interessado que deixe aí mensagem.

Cumprimentos
64 replies
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diplomat61 (233 D)
22 Sep 15 UTC
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Dannyux (282 D)
25 Sep 15 UTC
Sorry for my ignorance
I've been away from this game for like 5 years. I forgot all the abbreviations, like DMZ. Can you tell me all of them including DMZ ?
12 replies
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Jvault (158 D)
24 Sep 15 UTC
Orders being mixed up?!
Recently I have been playing games and my orders have been messing up.. I just submitted a build order for my game I'm playing
Mediterranean-34, and I know for a fact I put in orders to have a fleet in Alexandria, and armies in Memphis and Thebes and when I opened it up today I found that it built armies in Alexandria and Memphis?!?! What do I do?
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shield (3929 D)
25 Sep 15 UTC
(+1)
forfeit your points here!
3 replies
Open
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