My mother is a criminal defense attorney, in her later years, she defended pro bono (for free) many gang members, people from economically depressed areas, and minorities. I can tell you for sure that the criminal justice system, especially on the local level, is heavily slanted against minorities, less so at the Federal level. Minorities get profiled, by white and black cops alike, minority defenders have less of a chance in the entire system, from arrest, defense, court, prison, etc. There are black mothers that teach their teenagers to not carry backpacks, because sometimes, cops want to search it as an excuse to harass. A white kid carrying a backpack is never viewed as a threat. I'm a middle aged white guy, and I can count on only one hand the times I have been discriminated against in my entire life. Many blacks experience more discrimination daily than I have in my entire life. It's wrong. All people should be treated equally under the law and in society. It's fundamental in our constitution. I also served 24 years in the military, and swore an oath to defend our constitution, we defend the CONSTITUTION, not the flag or a song. The flag is a piece of cloth, the National Anthem, is a song (and a racist one at that, if you read the lyrics in all the verses, not just the first one). The ideas in the constitution are the very core of what America should be, and the constitution very clearly protects the right of the people to peacefully protest. I absolutely support the rights of people who choose to protest during the National Anthem or who choose to protest the flag. The Supreme Court agrees, that burning of the American Flag, in protest, is protected First Amendment Free Speech. Kneeling during the National Anthem clearly is as well.

Tugster, who is here claimed that Military swore to defend The Flag or the Anthem? I went back and looked, and did not see that voiced by anyone ever, or maybe you can quote it for me.

Not even sure where the burning of the Flag part came in either. Agree or disagree, it is a legal right, even if I think when people do it, it is to piss other people off, as it can serve no other real purpose. It is a "hey, look at me" moment.

What part of the Military did you serve?

And as far as defending gang members, are we talking like Crips and MS13?

@Ogion

"You guys are only now getting Yanik? When he said that trans people were whiners for speaking out against being targeted, that was enough. The whole rushing to the defense of white supremacists because protesting is terrorism or something made it shockingly clear. Now he is arguing that systemic racism doesn't exist despite the mountains of research showing that the injustice system is racists from top to bottom"

1. the anti-trans and white supremacist things are lies, thanks for your usual quality of work Ogion

2. still waiting on the "mountains of research" to ACTUALLY BE SOURCED

"Does he need to go full Rhinos before you guys get it?"

do... you mean "RINOs"?


"Interestingly, income inequality and interracial inequality are significant drivers of crime. No prizes for recognizing that there are tremendous income inequalities. Interesting that note segregated cities have higher white on black crime rates

https://www.hoplofobia.info/wp-content/uploads/2015/08/2006-Race-and-Crime.pdf

In other words, it looks like white racism is a big driver of crime."

1. ok... if you want to argue economic oppression then that's fine. but how is that supposed to translate to "police are systemically racist." if more black people commit crime because more black people are in poverty, why are we blaming the police and not the causes of poverty??? and yes, racism in policing still exists, it's just not the entire picture for why more black people are in prison.

2. from your own source i have a white on black crime rate with a mean of 5.92 (p10000) and a black on white crime rate of 103.50 (p10000) pg 309

then on 310, directly comparing white to black inequality, the regression shows the white-on-black crime rate to be 4.267, while the black-on-white crime rate is 17.540


so, what the hell are you trying to argue with that white people are more violent with that link? if you just want to say that high inequality raises the crime rate, then that's a fairly obvious statement, but otherwise... your argument fails.



@Tugster

thanks for your story, and i'll address the two main parts of it. As for your mother working as a criminal defense story, i could go the route of saying "anecdote," but what you're saying really is important. specifically this

"many gang members, people from economically depressed areas, and minorities."

the problem is, for gang members, that's overwhelmingly latino and black. if you want to talk about overarching crime statistics, the number one indicator for basic demographics is income level. the crossover between minorities and lower income groups is what makes the disparity appear racist, when it's much more of a class problem.

Also, when was the last year your mother served? because we've had several waves of criminal justice reform across many parts of the country hit us in a very short amount of time. i'm only observing data from 2013 onwards (although Ogion's link was a bit dated from 2006) so as to stay current.

And also, i thank you for your service, but... i still don't know who here is threatening taking away people's rights. honestly, i haven't found a single person on this site, or in this thread, who wants to take away the football player's right to protest. all we have is our opinion on it. if you're referring back to Trump at that one rally talking about the protests, yeah i'd say it's inappropriate for the President to do (fyi, i voted for Clinton, don't pin him on me) but it's a far far step back from taking away rights.

and on the flip side of this argument, apparently the coach of the Pittsburgh Steelers think his team trumps the right of Alejandro Villanueva to stand for the anthem.

If some players have the right to kneel without being verbally assaulted, why does this man not have the right to stand without being attacked?

"I absolutely support the rights of people who choose to protest during the National Anthem or who choose to protest the flag"

But what about supporting the rights of people who choose to protest those that protest during the Anthem or who choose to protest the flag?

It seems, and correct me if I am wrong, that your are selective in who should be allowed to protest and who shouldn't.

There is a military base where they dedend warehouses full of flags. Its a secret base. On the moon. Thats where we are hiding Bin Laden. Thats right- Obana faked the Bin Laden mission to get reelected

Even if we lose Memphis
Even if we lose Topeka
Dont let them capture our flags
We wont know what country we are without those flags
We wouldnt know what to do durng the anthem

Tomlin never said anything bad about Villaneuva. #FakeNews

I think Kuta's right, Tomlin didn't single Villanueva out, but he was looking for unity in the team

http://www.foxnews.com/sports/2017/09/25/steelers-coach-mike-tomlin-raps-alejandro-villanueva-for-standing-for-national-anthem.html

but Villanueva's comment is pretty good:

""I don’t know if the most effective way is to sit down during the national anthem with a country that’s providing you freedom, providing you $16 million a year...when there are black minorities that are dying in Iraq and Afghanistan for less than $20,000 a year," Villanueva told ESPN in 2016.

He added: "I will be the first one to hold hands with Colin Kaepernick and do something about the way minorities are being treated in the United States, the injustice that is happening with police brutality, the justice system, inequalities in pay. You can’t do it by looking away from the people that are trying to protect our freedom and our country.""


if you want to protest police brutality, inequality and the like, that's a good thing, but kneeling for the flag is a controversial way of doing it, and by making it controversial you're taking focus away from the actual problems, and shifting them to a bigger argument about whose the "most american" or "most patriotic" and it all becomes a purity pissing contest

Trump: Neo nazis are nice guys.
Also Trump: NFL players who kneel are sons of bitches.

Yeah.......

I wonder if the families of those who have lost their lives in service to our country feel the same about how the flag and anthem mean nothing.

Well, I guess I have to address the comments one by one:

I was a Navy Fighter Pilot and Air Force instructor pilot for 24 years. I also served overseas in Latin America as an International Affair Officer in Honduras. By the way, the government barely is in charge down there, it's incredibly corrupt and the Drug Lords pretty much run the place, so for anyone who thinks they have it bad in the USA, go visit the thousands of children living in cardboard boxes in Tegucigalpa.

My mother served as an attorney as recently as last year up to age of 84, when she was forced to retire due to a stroke. she still routinely receives letters from prisoners asking her to represent her. Gangs, no, not Bloods and Crips and MS13 and all that. Local Muskegon, Michigan, neighborhood gangs, not hard core national ones. Mostly young kids with no economic opportunity.

I understand that the flag burning was entering a new somewhat off topic thread into the thread. I never claimed that anyone in the military swore to protect a flag or a song, no of course not.

I absolutely believe of course that players have a right to stand and sing the anthem, of course, it''s the same right that others have to kneel. both are expressions of free speech protected by the constitution.

And of course people have the right to protest that others are protesting, of course.

And people have the right to say that that they do not agree with people who are doing things that they do not agree with.

I cannot write all day, but I will leave everyone with a thought of Freedom of Speech:

It easy to support Freedom of Speech when the person speaking is saying something that you agree with. The true test of your belief in Freedom of Speech is when someone is saying something that you vehemently disagree with.

I can strongly disagree with something that someone says while still supporting their right to say it. And I can speak out against what they are saying, because that is my right to Freedom of Speech.

If you really look into people, most of us are vastly more similar than we are different. Most people want a decent job, a chance to live without being harassed, the ability to do as well as they can for their family. These things are pretty much universal for all people of all nations, all colors, all religions, etc.

It would just be a lot better for people to stay calm and support each other as human beings.

"I can strongly disagree with something that someone says while still supporting their right to say it. And I can speak out against what they are saying, because that is my right to Freedom of Speech."

Well said sir.

Unfortunately today people tend to believe that Freedom of Speech applies to only things they agree with and that anything they disagree with should be banned and outlawed. You see several of them saying and doing that here.

When I think of honoring America, I think of waving the confederate flag. Nothing says freedom like standing up for the confederacy who bravely tried to destroy us. When I see these losers kneeling and hold hands I think - yall are disrespecting my confederate flag. Yall better git out my country

I have a British flag, a Nazi flag, and a confederate flag. When the Anthem starts I stand and salute them all. Because if you arent standing you are being disrespectful to my rights to fly flags of our enemies throughout history. Whats important isnt.. who made the flag (slaves), what matters is that you stand. At home if you wanna fly the Nepalese flag - good - yer still a patriot. If you wanna defend confederate statues from being moved to museums - good - yer a patriot defending our history. But if you sit down while those statues get removed - yer a socialist. If you dont salute robert e lee - you are unamerican. He fought hard for our way of life. Unlike those cowards taking a knee on the football field.

@JK

"Trump: Neo nazis are nice guys."

can i get a source for that? if it's true, it's always good to provide a source

Ah the debate about removing or not removing statues... be careful with this one, it is 100% intended to be a distraction by the political elite away from the real problems of the USA. It's easy to fight over a statue, a lot harder to fix the tax code, stop the deficit, do a better job at education, have a health care system that actually works etc. And once Lee and Columbus statues are gone, watch out, Thomas Jefferson might be next. The history of the revolution is taught in school with a decided northern perspective, taxation without representation, Boston Tea Party, etc. There is a compelling evidence that southern colonial leaders wanted the American revolution to protect slavery. They were afraid that the British were going to abolish it in the colonies, so they needed to break away from Britain to protect their slave economy.

with statues on public land it should be left up to the community for a vote.

with statues on private land it is freedom of expression.

the federal government really doesn't need to get involved with these things


i feel like we can all agree on those 3 things... i hope

It is morally reprehensible to kneel during the anthem. Sometimes I see guys driving around with rebel flags on their trucks and I think to myself: thank god were preserving the rich fun loving cuddly history of the confederacy. I am so glad we have freedom to fly whatever flag we want. When I compare the two groups pro-slavery confederates and kneeling unpatriotic football players I think - those football players should leave. Unless they wanna get some confederate flags from wal-mart (in that case they should stay) gotta love the rebel flag. Its necessary to preserve the freedom of speech! We must protect freedom of speech!!

So if these football players dont shape up they better go to some other country.

But you confederates who rebelled and slaughtered billions. Yall are cool. Total patriots yo

Kneeling for the anthem is terrible. How dare you disrespect the flag like that.

Now let me go put on my war paint and headdress and shit on the culture of a minority group. GO REDSKINS GO.

"Kneeling for the anthem is terrible. How dare you disrespect the flag like that.

Now let me go put on my war paint and headdress and shit on the culture of a minority group. GO REDSKINS GO. "

Cause we all know that two wrongs equal a right.

Sometimes while standing before during and after the anthem. I do the tomohawk chop and belt out the florida state seminole war chant. When I think of the trail of tears I think football. I think - fuck yea we should do an EDM remix of the anthem with explosion sounds and mix it with the tomohawk chop song. Have JJ Abrams give the anthem a reboot
Thatll get these cowards to stand for something

https://youtu.be/wcqfAmLZvGg

Another reason to stand during the anthem.
What if Bane attacks. You wanna be kneeling or sittin on yer ass when Bane shows up?

https://youtu.be/UsoYwysCdfY

http://www.cnn.com/2017/09/25/us/nfl-national-anthem-trump-kaepernick-history-trnd/index.html

The sports leagues don't officially care.

@Tugster. "the National Anthem, is a song (and a racist one at that, if you read the lyrics in all the verses, not just the first one"

I can't see anything racist in the anthem:
https://www.lyricsondemand.com/n/nationalanthemslyrics/usanationalanthemlyrics.html

It mentions slaves, but it's clearly referring to the British. You know, Americans are free men, the British are slaves to the crown, etc, who had all retreated or died by the end of the battle. Cue chants of USA!

Sure, if you dig around, you can find some people trying to tie it to the Colonial Marines (who were black, and ex-slaves), but that's not necessary for the song to make sense. Hell, you can find people trying to tie "freemen" in (4) to freed slaves, which is just bananas.

@Stressedlines:

"and on the flip side of this argument, apparently the coach of the Pittsburgh Steelers think his team trumps the right of Alejandro Villanueva to stand for the anthem.

If some players have the right to kneel without being verbally assaulted, why does this man not have the right to stand without being attacked?"

Evidence that Alejandro Villanueva was attacked or harmed in any way, please?

That's just a straight-ahead white racist lie.

I am still SICKENED by the fact that the USA is, as confirmed by you poor people, a nation where people can be fired from their jobs for not agreeing with the same political views as the company that employs them.


QUESTION FOR ALL OF YOU:

Is that:

A: Undemocratic
B: Awesome - go USA!!!!!!!!!!1111!!!!!
C: Disgustingly undemocratic.

I asked Nd some questions about this on P.5 of this thread.

It's sad that he is too afraid to answer.