Now you're just arguing for the point of arguing.

The point is this: A scoring option that some people liked (albeit those people being a minority) was abolished without any consultation with members. When this was criticised, the Dev Team leader responded by claiming that members had been "canvassed". This was a serious misrepresentation of the facts.

"Anybody can make suggestions"

I suggest you re-instate PPSC as an option under the advanced game setup options.

Hellenic Riot: "but very few things are"
Actually, virtually every site improvement is lauded by users. It is not normal to get significant push-back here.

For the sake of appearances I'm trying to find a good reason to argue against Jamie's suggestion...

Alright. We'll rephrase. The popularity of PPSC has been MONITORED during many many large discussions for a very long time. This was not an overnight decision - it's been on the agenda for a long time, but until SoS was ready, it was not a good change (because a lot of people do have a very reasonable distaste of the meta of DSS games where people gang up to stop a solo and then just draw way too early. Something I myself also fully agree with). And it was noted that a lot of the main reasons in favour of PPSC that were brought up during those discussions... are also in favour of SoS. It was only really the Survive aspect that was not... and given that nobody goes into a game aiming for a survive (I hope), we did conclude that now was an acceptable time to remove PPSC.

With the implementation of SoS and our continued efforts to bring a lot more FTF players into the webDip community, along with getting webDip involved in the FTF scene, PPSC was seen as bizarre by players with experience of Diplomacy scoring, and was cited as a turn off by some from even playing on our site, because it looked so amateur. TheMinisterOfWar organised the Netherlands Diplomacy Championship a month or two ago. A_Tin_Can is strongly integrated into the Melbourne FTF scene. 2ndWhiteLine into the Boston FTF scene. Vecna all over Europe. We've been trying, and succeeding, to use these as footholds to both expand FTF in general and to expand webDip via FTF. This is our planned main avenue of growth - getting experienced, quality players onto this site so that everyone has a better experience here. SumOfSquares was added as part of our partnership with the 2016 World Diplomacy Championship, and other updates focused around that are in the pipeline. There is a long term strategy to everything we've been doing here; and we do not make decisions based on whims.

@ Hellenic Riot:

That is a better statement, and I appreciate you taking the time to set out what really went into this decision.

I can accept that this is a privately-owned website run according to the wishes of its owners, with the input of their mods, admins and devs. I have no right as a member to be canvassed - I was merely unhappy that claims were made, by the Dev Leader, that such canvassing had happened. Your statement basically puts that to rights.

I understand that, as you have explained, the main driver for removing PPSC as even so much as an *option* is the desire to attract new members from a particular gaming demographic - even if this comes at the expense of some existing members who feel sidelined by this change, and by the manner in which this change has been implemented.

Thank you for the clarification.

"There is a long term strategy to everything..." and soon... *twirls moustache, strokes pussy* ...we will rule the world!' *slams hand on table*.

"Kremmen, I don't know what conspiracy you think we're cooking, but nothing we're doing is malicious."

As far as I can tell, Kremmen isn't accusing you of being malicious or conspiratorial. Yet the tone mods/admins have used in this thread does suggest that you all have no intention of reversing course. This produces frustration in users who want to talk about your proposals. That your ultimate goal is the elimination of points entirely doesn't produce much confidence in the perceived openness of these decisions.

We are amateurs, aren't we?

As a player who was strongly integrated into the Exeter University FTF scene (and I have to say both of us were really quite keen. We even got a game finished once) I've always been curious to how big these other FTF communities actually are. Whenever I look up a tournament site these communities have the appearance of being a dozen or so chums who meet up for a drinking session 2 or 3 times a year and throw the occasional game of diplomacy in the middle of it all, usually with more trophies than there are players.

Am I reading this all wrong? Is there a huge bunch of regular players out there I've not been aware of?

The British FTF scene is indeed a fairly small group of players, sadly, but there are some much bigger ones out there.

People are flying from all over the world for the WDC in Chicago; and the European DC in Milan next year. I'll let TMOW, ATC, and 2WL go into specific numbers. I do know that FTF scenes have been growing in recent years, and old ones that died out have been reestablished. So Diplomacy in general does seem to be growing in popularity - as do "smart games" in general (something I have followed with interest for 6 years now).

And @Chumbles

I can assure you that my plans for world domination are even longer term, and you are in no danger whatsoever... presently. ;)

TheMinisterOfWar:
"
- It's often confusing (to newbies and experienced players alike)
- it doesn't conform to the win conditions listed in the rules of Diplomacy
- it's contrary to all (afaik) FTF scoring systems in existence
- we want to maintain a limited number of options on the site to prevent fracturing the community.
"
- The confusion has been a result of inadequate descriptors. This can easily be remedied by introducing better descriptors. Seeing as you all don't seem to understand PPSC, it is hardly surprising that better descriptors haven't been implemented to remedy the confusion. Perhaps the names PPSC and WTA also contributed to the confusion, but I dare say that the replacement names are far more confusing.
- PPSC perfectly fits within the winning conditions outlines in the rulebook, as I will get into presently. Besides, there are still clear violations of the rules (such as ending games before retreats or allowing press in the retreats/disbands/builds phases) which have yet to be corrected.
- I don't see why face-to-face scoring systems matter here. Do any FTF scoring systems involve buy-ins at all? I doubt it.
- By 'facturing the community' I presume you mean that users will only play games in one particular scoring system, thereby lowering the number of other users players may interact with? I can't think of any evidence for this conclusion. We have a few map variants, after all, which pose a similar 'dilemma' without controversy. Even if it were true, how could one or two extra non-default options make much of a difference?

@ Octavious: "We are amateurs, aren't we?"

Professional Diplomacy has increased dramatically in recent years. I heard that Edi Birsan's income from prize money and sponsorship deals was over $75,000 in 2014-15.

TheMinisterOfWar: "Dictatorship, really"
I believe that Jamiet99uk was just referencing Hellenic Riot's quote on Page 7 that "We're not some bunch of evil dictators."

It's amazing that people here think they need to be consulted in order for the powers that be to make change. I believe that ATC said this would be initially a trial of a new scoring syatem. Whether they consulted on an opinion from some users, is up to them. So, I would take them at their word that they did so. They also have no obligation to do so. They don't have to allow anyone to go back to recover PPSC data. We all enjoy playing here, so just do so. For those people that think their points are a merit of their skill at diplomacy, maybe try the new system and see how you fair.

@ ssorenn:

"It's amazing that people here think they need to be consulted in order for the powers that be to make change."

Literally nobody is saying that.

The change is PPSC is gone, and you all are arguing about it. Like someone took a lollipop out of you hand and wrong you. What am I missing ???

As far as I am concerned the matter was resolved with Hellenic Riot's post above which begins "Alright, we'll rephrase".

For me, the main thing I was objecting to was the claim made by ATC that the membership had been consulted. Hellenic Riot has now confirmed that was not the case, and that the main driver for completely abolishing PPSC is the desire to attract new members from a particular gaming demographic - even if this comes at the expense of some existing members who feel sidelined by this change, and by the manner in which this change has been implemented.

The matter is closed as far as I'm concerned - the powers that be have ruled, and they don't really mind if existing players are unhappy.

It does strike me as a little odd that a scoring method popular with several highly respected and valued members of the community, and Jamie, has been removed for the sake of what seem to me to be very dubious benefits. Still, time will tell if it's a good choice.

That's not exactly what I said. We're hopeful that once users play SoS & Unranked games are used to them, they will find that they adequately replace PPSC, and will continue to enjoy our site.

Basically, we hope that PPSCers try actual Diplomacy and enjoy it.

"Actual" Diplomacy does not have a points system at all, steephie.

Don't worry, I'm just throwing a cheap comment into a discussion I can't possibly care about.

@jamie. Even if the case were that ATC said users were consulted, why do you feel that you need to be included? This is not a democracy. It's a
Privately owned site, that allows us users to play a game we love with people all over the world for FREE.

@ ssorenn: I have said that I consider the matter to be closed. Why are you continuing to badger me?

At no point did I claim this site ought to be a democracy. To repeat myself:

"I can accept that this is a privately-owned website run according to the wishes of its owners, with the input of their mods, admins and devs."

The lollipop store is currently out of stock with no plans to restock.

Chumbles said it right. The actual game of Diplomacy has a single point, and that point is to win. Some call it a Calhamer Point with a value of 1 in order to quantify it so it can be shared equally among all participants in a Draw.

Case closed then