Bump

YJ, you want to respond to this?

I will say that at this minute, I find YJ's argument pretty interesting. For now, ##VOTE ghug. I'll be back to discuss this some more though.

Final Day Vote Update 4
Yellowjacket (1): ghug
ghug (2): Yelllowjacket, semck

yada yada

Yes, semck, I am working up a response to both your inquiry and ghug's statements. Should be an hour or so.

Semck, could you point out the parts of his argument you find convincing/parts of my response you don't?

ghug, yes, I will. It might be a couple hours -- sorry!

So ghug, I do find it troubling that you moved so quickly against PJ and Warden on day one. You can give justifications for each now, of course, but the fact is, you just happened to single out the two mafia members for not-great reasons on D1.

Please address your p.14 voting of YJ better.

Do you at least admit that the roleblock is a troubling piece of evidence, sitting where I'm sitting?

On the PE vote switch, you say you changed because PE offered to stay on a leash. But that actually happened much earlier, when he posted the puppy picture, and you still stayed against him. Why did it take so long to change?

Thanks ghug.

I'll respond later to the second half of your question.

My attack on PJ was a joke based on his interaction with uclabb and his mafianess last game. My concern against Warden was legitimate, and the post that I called out at the beginning remained a piece of evidence in my case against him. Is happening to attack two of the mafia members early more suspicious than YJ's supposed scumread of PJ with an intention of clearing him by killing PE?

I voted YJ because he was being hardheaded and inconsistent. It was a bit of a gut reaction, and I decided upon rereading his exchanges with PE and uclabb that the case wasn't as strong as I had thought.

Of course the roleblock is a bit troubling, but it's no more than that. It's the one piece of evidence that I can't really counter, because I don't know what the mafia's motivations were for roleblocking him, but I don't think it's a strong enough piece of evidence to override everything that points at YJ.

With regards to PE, he posted the puppy picture along with "this is me, an adorable killer, begging you to let me get ghug." That's not signifying a willingness to follow, that's an appeal to the town to keep him alive so he can kill whomever he wants. I said on page 38 that I was more OK with PE once he had said he'd be willing to target at the town's discretion, and I moved off of him when he confirmed that for uclabb on page 39.

In response to ghug's points:

---

“Lastly, vig shooting inactives is a good strategy. PE said this last game when he was town, he said it again here. You never actually made an argument against it, instead citing some crappy wiki page. Do you have an actual argument against it, or is this actually a good example of your scumminess?”

Yes, I have an actual argument against it, the same one I made in late D1 and early N1. In the early days, we are dealing with especially limited information. By shooting inactives, I would argue that the vig has a greater than random chance of shooting a townie (or worse yet, a power role), especially in the early going. In my admittedly limited experience, I've never seen a wholly inactive mafia. In addition, the vig is wasting bullets that could be later directed at actual mafia suspects that he has. As the game progresses, the chance of hitting mafia increases. The fact that I later found several strategy guides that agree with me doesn't invalidate the point. Can you find any outside sources that agree that firing blindly into the crowd is a good idea?

---

Night one:

“Night talking is a good idea. More talking is always good, except in certain situations such as the most recent night, in which it was better to keep quiet so that you wouldn't know which of semck and gtl was more likely to vote for you. It's almost almost in the mafia's benefit to have less talking, so again this actually points to your scumminess.”

Well, I say it is pro-town, you say it is pro-mafia. I think we've both laid out our reasons why, and I'm more than content to let semck decide with whom he agrees. I'm more interested in your inconsistency. Which is it? Why did you think it was a good idea to talk on N1 and quickly agree it was a bad idea on N5?

---

“As for your comments about my interaction with Warden and pj, how exactly is arguing with Warden for a while and then making a big case against him "cooling down"?”

I'm referring specifically to your interactions with both of them on P26, where you cool your read on PJ, and chalk your warden clash up to “playstyle.”

---

“Day two: I can't explain the roleblock, as I was not a part of that discussion.”

So you agree, then, that ghug as mafia has far more cause at that time to roleblock PE than YJ does?

---

“Night two: Uclabb wasn't being suspected at all. It's good to regularly look at everyone, especially those flying under the radar. Why would I speak up about someone I was about to kill?”

That's the definition of a slip. It was only suspicious because it was so completely out of the blue. You had been townreading uclabb IIRC.

---

“pj tried to jump on every wagon he could. Nobody ever voted for me, so he never did. The only person he actually made an attempt to try to paint as scum was you, and he ramped that up the more obviously scum he became, presumably to distance himself from you.”

You're completely ignoring the point. I was not talking about PJ's votes. I was drawing attention to the fact that he never once mentioned you in all his scumrants, and I find that very interesting.

---

“RE: Day two vote. Of course you can try to justify it now. The fact is that it was a scummy ploy to remove a threat and save your scum buddies. No amount of explanation will change that.”

If it was a scummy ploy for YJ to remove a threat, then is it not also a scummy ploy when you were pushing the exact same argument on D2? Again, P31, 33/34. You were making the exact same case as I was until PE agreed not to target you. I find it far more scummy that you flipped on it so rapidly when your own self got out of the line of fire than it is scummy for me to maintain with good reason that PE could not be trusted.

---

“RE: Not challenging me, nobody suspected me. A townie would try to question everyone, as I was planning on going with uclabb before he died. The fact that you went with the crowd and didn't challenge me is a mafia move, not a town one. What I did with you is indicative of town play. Townies' reads evolve. Day one, I thought you were scummy. Later, I looked back and realized you didn't seem as scummy as I had thought. When I said you/pj were the most likely pair it was because I remembered Warden attacking dt oct hard day one. I reread and realized that he hadn't attacked as hard as I had thought, leading me to (wrongly) reconsider. That's what a good town player does.”

I did question you on several matters throughout, and it's a credit to you that I didn't find much before I KNEW you were mafia. However, if there is one thing you absolutely cannot claim, it is that I “went with the crowd,” in most of my decisions. To say that I did not have evolving reads is false. I only draw attention to the fact that my reads did not evolve with you, ghug, specifically, because that would have shown a great lack of foresight for YJ as mafia.

Regarding your bosox vote, again, you are ignoring the point I made. You said at one point that YJ/PJ is the most likely scum pair, and then 5 short pages later you crucify bosox with a vote/end, without even pressing this “most likely read” on YJ. How is that possible?

---

“I honestly can't justify seeing [YJ trying to save squigs] as a statement of Squigs' innocence unless the reader already knows that pj is guilty (which most of us were pretty sure of) and squigs is innocent (which only YJ, PJ, and Squigs himself knew).”

If you presume YJ as mafia, with the #2 BW on me, it would be an extremely risky idea to offer a last minute change of votes. As far as how I could have read it this way, if you go back and read, you can see that gtlblx sees it too. I have already discussed how I drew the conclusion I drew with semck, so I don't think I can offer better reason than that.

---

“First think I’m noticing is that he’s talking about pj, saying he’s a slight scumread, but really only asking Eden to explain his pj read. He doesn’t push or vote on pj, doing nothing to back up his supposed slight scumread. It looks like he’s faking conflict with a teammate without actually having any contact that would put that teammate at any risk.”

PJ was my #3 scumread, and yes, I acknowledged at the time that it was tied to suspicions of PE. It's not fair to say I didn't do anything to press him. I repeatedly called attention to PJ's defensiveness in that interaction. As for voting, I've already explained that Dr. Sox was a defensive vote (yes, on a scum-read). I did it to tie up the BW and get my own head out of the noose.

---

“The next thing he did was push hard on lurkers, something we now know would have kept his two mafia teammates safe, whilst giving the least possible information to town upon a lynch.”

Those votes were never meant to stick, as I explained to squigs at the time. Ideally, it would jump them into contributing more, and I could then vote somebody I actually found suspicious. My idea failed, I acknowledged it had failed, and so I voted PE. There is nothing scummy about that interaction.

---

“He wanted to lynch doc oc solely to provide information on PE, a pretty terrible reasoning for lynching someone day one when you can’t draw connections that strongly.”

That's absolutely false, and demonstrably so by re-reading my late D1 posts. Information was a small part of it, but the main reasons, as stated at the time, voted Dr. Oct were to prevent my own lynch, and then later because I found him a more likely mafia than capnmeme, and because Dr. Sox was the highest scumread available with a possibility of lynching.

---

“Before the end of the day, he says he’d be fine lynching doc oc or captainmeme, but then he comes out with an “I told you so” right after the lynching. This is exactly what Warden did, and it’s very scummy.””

Can you provide the post where I said I'd be OK with lynching capnmeme, or will you admit you're just fabricating this? P21-23 I'm constantly arguing people off of him. As far as the “I told you so,” (P23) that was an obvious joke in response to you.

---


“Night 1:
YJ claims the the Vig should be shooting only if he has a strong lead on someone. Given that the mafia are talking at this point and that they apparently figured out Vash’s role because he was breadcrumbing so obviously (according to guak), it would be in the best interests of the mafia to convince the vig to hold his shots before they kill him. He then argues against night talking, which is decidedly pro-mafia. His “big” end of night argument is that PE is scummy for encouraging good vig strategy. His entire night is nothing more than two pro-mafia process discussion.”

I've made my case for both not-night-talking, and for the vig holding fire. Just because you say these positions are scummy, doesn't make it so. I think you still have to address your inconsistency on nighttalking, though. If you're so convinced night talking is so pro-town, again, why did you so quickly agree it was pro-mafia on N5?

---

“Day 2:
Coming into the day, he quickly assumes that Vash was killed by the mafia rather than the SK. This is because he knows that he targeted Vash overnight and that he roleblocked Eden, so the truth is more clear to him at this point than it would be to the average townie.”

No, it was PE claiming roleblock that made me quite sure of that. With only one death, and nobody claiming docsave, it was by far the most likely scenario at the time.

---

“On page 44, he says he’d be willing to vote Warden over PE. When Gtl gives the Warden bandwagon some steam, however, YJ begs Gtl to vote for Eden again.”

Again, you are simply making this up. I stated that I would only switch my vote from PE to warden if I became convinced PE could not be lynched, and that somebody less scummy than warden was in danger of being lynched. See my 2nd correction post on P44 for clarification.

---

“He goes on fighting to lynch PE instead of WD right up until the end....”

Guilty as charged. I stand by my argument for lynching PE>WD on D2.

---

“Also of note is that he goes back to saying that Warden was very scummy after Warden loses but before he flips.”

That is also false, I immediately criticized WD for his long and scummy post in my first post made since he had posted it (P44,he posted in P42). This was done with the biggest BW currently on PE, so it's not true that WD had “already lost.”

---

“Night 2:
Not much of note. He refuses to bus pj in the PE vote, instead voting for guak, then Maniac when that fails, and then finally pj, but only when the conclusion seems foregone.”

The guak vote was legit, and I wasn't the only one on it. I had stated (P55) that I was currently scumreading him at the top of my list. When I realized I couldn't get a wagon on guak (I dont think he had copclaimed yet), the maniac vote was done without thinking, and maniac pointed out that it was as useless as the guak vote was, and so I moved to my best lynchable scumread, PJ.

---

Day 3:
“He sees pj’s continued life as confirmation of his guilt and immediately votes for him. He doesn’t consider the alternative because he knows the truth.”

Yes, I saw it as confirmation. I found it highly unlikely that the mafia just fell asleep at the wheel on N2.

---

“He also doesn’t consider the option of setting PE on pj again, because it’s better for the mafia if the confirmed mafia is killed during the day and the town does no scumhunting in the meantime.”

I was excited to see the roleblock of PE on N2, taking it as a guilty PJ, so I immediately voted PJ first thing D3. When I was reminded of the proper tactic, I immediately unvoted PJ, agreeing that it was better to wait and force the mafia to waste the rb again. I never pushed back or encouraged others to vote PJ, because I was simply, briefly, wrong, which I promptly corrected.

---

“He makes a big argument against Squigs, a lot of which is invalid because he thinks that Squigs said something at a different time than he actually did. I ended up mistakenly voting Squigs for mostly separate reasons (I was worried about the lack of originality), but at least my reasons were valid.”

There was only one factual inaccuracy in my read of squigs, and I withdrew that once you pointed it out. As I said at the time, it didn't make the points I raised significantly weaker. However, if you go back to P 68, you can see that ghug voted squigs long before I did – I wanted to give squigs the opportunity to answer for the discrepancies I found. What's even more interesting is that ghug offers almost no justification for his change of vote to squigs, he just follows PE and bo sox. It's only after he had already begun voting squigs that ghug begins to question him in earnest.

---

“Night 3:
Not much here either. He spends a lot of time advocating bo’s scumminess in preparation for the next lynch and defending himself from attacks by Maniac. At the end of the night he states his confidence that pj is guilty, knowing full well both that he is guilty and that he is about to flip as such. pj again accuses YJ with his last breaths in further effort to distance them.”

Yes, I was reasonably confident that PJ was guilty. Most people were. I found it highly unlikely that the mafia just dropped the ball in roleblocking PE, as some were claiming. As far as advocating bo's scummyness, I think its obvious that any argument you make against me there must also be made against yourself.

---

“Day 4:
He begins the day by saying “ooh! Looks like somebody was fooled :)” in response to the deaths. He then clarifies that he thought only pj had died. YJ: What exactly did this mean?”

I misread the death message when I scrolled down to see who died. Chaqa had interspersed flavor text between guak's and PJ's death, so I missed the guak message, and thought only PJ had died. I assumed then, that maniac had guessed right in his docsave. When I reread the flavor text, I saw my mistake.

---

“Day 5:
Not much here. We just kill bo.”

And you let your “#1 scumread” YJ off without even questioning him, don't forget that part.

---

“Night 5:
YJ suddenly goes back to caring about night talking after not caring for quite a while. In this case, he’s actually right, as the nightkill could be the difference between winning and losing the game. It’s still a bit weird though. YJ, why did you stop caring about night talking?”

N1 I did care, and spoke out against it.
N2 and N3 nighttalking actually WAS advantageous, because of the PE factor. Of course we need to discuss our 'vote.'
N4 I was busy defending myself. If I had refused to do so, would you not instead be calling me out right now for avoiding questions posed to me?


----------------------------------------------------------------

In short, I think the tapestry ghug has woven around himself is beginning to crumble. Many of his arguments against me are outright misrepresentations of events. It isn't even a matter of selective interpretation or confirmation bias. Indeed, we can go back for ourselves and confirm that these events did not factually occur in the way he is presenting them. I encourage, you, semck, to verify these falsehoods for yourself.

@semck I know I still have a question you asked pending. I will get to it, but am pretty fatigued after researching for that post.

**correction...

in response to ghug's 2nd point, that should have read, "I say it is pro mafia, you say it is pro-town." I switched them.

**correction #2: same post. I see you had tried to explain this already, but I argue that it's always bad to talk at night (excepting the PE situation). It's only more obviously bad in N5. It's still bad in N1 for the exact same reasons, it's just more difficult to see that this is the case because there are so many more players and it isn't "all on the line," yet.

RE: Vig
Killing inactives with lynches during the day is wasteful, as they don't really provide information about anyone when they flip and mafia are more likely to bus a teammate if that teammate is doing nothing. There's still a chance that those inactives are mafia though, so it's worthwhile for the vig to get rid of them, especially considering the fact that the vig has a decent chance of dying early himself.

RE: Night talking
I've explained why I thought it was a good idea not to talk multiple times now. The fact that you continue to ignore that is questionable. You're also ignoring my questions about your inconsistency. Why were you suddenly OK with night talking most nights after offering initial protest?

RE: Cooling down
Warden chalked our conflict up to a difference in playstyle. I admitted that that was a possibility I should consider, but I kept pushing on him. That's not cooling down. I wasn't strongly reading pj as scum until later in day two, and that means I'm scum, but attacking him at the beginning also means I'm scum?

RE: Roleblock
I admit that the roleblock does look a bit suspicious, but it's not as clear as you seem to think that Eden would be targeting me. Apparently it was, but killing me would have put a lot of suspicion on him, and it wasn't clearly the optimal play. He suddenly switched to townreading you with little explanation at the beginning of the night. Wouldn't it make sense for you to read that as him trying to distance himself from his planned nightkill? There's definitely a case for roleblocking PE with you as mafia.

RE: uclabb
How is this a slip? Please explain clearly what you mean. I said that he should get some attention that he was lacking. I was townreading him, but I wanted to make sure. That's what a good town player does.

"I was drawing attention to the fact that he never once mentioned you in all his scumrants, and I find that very interesting."
That's all WIFOM. Maybe he did it because you wanted to have something to point out when trying to get me lynched. Maybe he did it because he didn't want to draw further suspicion to himself by going against a popular townread. Maybe he did it because I was his mafia buddy. This is not legitimate evidence.

RE: You and bo, late game
I made it perfectly clear why I thought you and PJ were the most likely pairing, namely because Warden went hard after doc oc day one. When I went back and reread, I realized that he hadn't been pushing as hard as I thought, so I went back to bo, who had been my biggest scumread. You still haven't explained how these changes make me at all scummy.

RE: PJ and PE day one
You claimed PJ was a top scumread, but you didn't do anything about it. You questioned PE about him, said you wanted to lynch PE, and said that PE's innocence (non-mafianess) would clear PJ. That's an attempt to make it look like you suspect a teammate while actually clearing him.

RE: End of day one
On page 19 you said you were willing to vote meme if he didn't answer, and then he didn't answer. You then gave an argument about lynching doc oc over captainmeme based solely on the info it would provide about PE. The important thing here is that you fought just enough to distance yourself from the lynch but not enough to actually get it changed. That's what's suspicious.

RE: Beginning of day 2
PE claimed roleblock a few minutes in, not enough people had been online to confirm that a docsave hadn't happened, and you ignored any possibility that didn't involve the mafia targeting Vash because you knew that they had targeted Vash. *This* is the definition of a slip, not my wanting to reread uclabb.

RE: End of day two
You said Warden was scummy on page 44, and said "I will continue to vote PE unless I can cast an important vote against one of my preferred scum reads, that is to say warden, gauk, maniac." You had multiple chances to cast an important vote against Warden, but you didn't. On page 45, you said that Warden might be scummy, but that you wanted to reread. On pages 46-51, you made no mention of Warden other than that you preferred his death to PJ's and only tried to persuade people to move their votes off of him and PJ. Right before Chaqa posted that voting had ended, when it was clear that Warden's fate was decided, you went back to saying that Warden was super scummy. You tried to defend him as long as you could, and then you claimed he was scummy knowing you'd look good when he flipped as such.

RE: Night two
Explain all you want, but votes are votes. You only voted pj when it was a foregone conclusion.

Day 3:
"Yes, I saw it as confirmation. I found it highly unlikely that the mafia just fell asleep at the wheel on N2." It meant he was likely scum, but not certainly so. You knew it was certain and tried to be proactive in busing him. That's all I see here.

RE: Squigs
I had been somewhat suspicious of Squigs for a while when I voted for him, as had been made clear in my reads. It was not a vote without reasoning. What is suspicious is that you acted as a catalyst for his lynch, even misconstruing things to make your case look good, but you didn't vote for him until later in the hopes of distancing yourself from another mislynch.

RE: PJ's supposed slip.
I see you've dropped this, presumably because it points to your guilt. Please answer.

RE: Day 4
But it was clear that the mafia were going to roleblock Maniac. It just seems like a strange thing for you to say.

"And you let your '#1 scumread' YJ off without even questioning him, don't forget that part."
When you quote me, make sure you're actually quoting me. I made it pretty clear that bo was my #1 scumread at that point. You're my #1 scumread now, because I know you're scum, but you weren't then.

RE: Factual inaccuracies.
You're just misinterpreting things. Find one place where I lied, as you so claim.


Lastly, I'd like to look at the mafia kills briefly:
Vash, apparently he made it obvious he was the vig. I'm assuming the mafia figured it out and killed him for it. He wasn't highly suspicious of either of us.
uclabb, a strong townie and one of YJ's strongest opponents. By the time he died, he wasn't scumreading me anymore, but YJ was his strongest read outside of the pj and guak everyone seemed to have at the time.
guak, he was the cop, they had to kill him.
Maniac, since he was the last town power and his identity was known, he could have been roleblocked every night and reduced to normal townie status. He suspected YJ though, and he died.
Gtl, he seemed more convinced of my innocence than semck, which means he was probably more likely to lynch YJ today. He died.


To reiterate the key points:
-YJ tried to clear PJ day one while making it seem like he read him as scum.
-YJ tried to distance himself from a mislynch day one, much as Warden did.
-YJ advocated pro-mafia strategies night one.
-YJ pushed very hard to get PE killed day two, something that clearly favored the mafia.
-YJ worked very hard to defend PJ and Warden from lynching day two, but once the outcome was certain, he quickly jumped back to claiming Warden was scum, knowing that he would flip that way.
-YJ has repeatedly read into things in a way that only mafia would, such as the PE roleblock on day two and PJ's supposed slip when we were lynching Squigs.
-The mafia nightkills have been against some of YJ's fiercest opponents.

OK, I'm going to read this stuff now and try to respond to you both to try to keep up some action tonight.

First, a general request: could people please try to include page numbers when they reference things, when they have them open anyway?

@YJ, I don't think I really understand your ghug/uclabb point. How is it a scumslip to say "Look at uclabb" when you know uclabb's going to be dead soon? Isn't that something you WOULDN'T say, since you know he's going to be dead soon?

@ghug, I think the PJ/YJ most likely team thing is really interesting. I hope you'll address that some more. It did seem out of the blue, and it does seem like you abandoned it fast. You do explain it well in your posts. Do you recall if you stated this reasoning at the time?

@ghug, YJ spent quite a lot of energy fighting for Doc Oc instead of Capnmeme to be killed. This seems like a weird thing for a mafia member to do. Can you point to any times when you fought hard for one townie over another, or for one mafia over another?

@YJ, why did you say, "Looks like somebody was fooled," not "Looks like somebody guessed right"?

@YJ, why did you consider PE and PJ linked on D1? Is there somewhere where you spell this out nicely?

@ghug, I find your case against YJ's behavior at the beginning of D2, and his alleged slip, very interesting. If you care to expand on it / analyze it more, I'd welcome the analysis. (Sorry, I could do this myself perhaps, but I am being inundated by things and having to reread huge swaths of text many times, so I'm asking for help on a few things).

@YJ, I think ghug raises an interesting point. After Warden had already made his "one heck of a scumslip," you said you were really conflicted on him and needed to reread. Later, you said he had made "one heck of a scumslip." What caused you to conclude that in that time span?

@Both If you see actual factual inaccuracies in each other's claims, please be sure to highlight that very aggressively. I don't have time to reread every single claim, though I reread quite a few.

@YJ, you did say ghug lied. Please spell out very clearly what he lied about.

For now I'm very in between. ##UNVOTE

@Yellowjacket (and Yellowjacket ONLY): when somebody is roleblocked and their power was not used, are they notified? How do you know?

Not much time, I'll get to what I can.

"I think the PJ/YJ most likely team thing is really interesting. I hope you'll address that some more. It did seem out of the blue, and it does seem like you abandoned it fast. You do explain it well in your posts. Do you recall if you stated this reasoning at the time?"

"Second, I think the most likely scumteam right now is pj and YJ. Even though Maniac's recent nonsense is nonsense, and bo was acting stupidly around end of phase, I think that bo is likely innocent due to Warden's going after him so hard early. I'll read back and try to connect pj/YJ/Warden when I get the chance to, but that's unlikely to be before night ends." (p74) Note also that PJ got defensive at the mere suggestion that they were a team.
"One of the things I found damning of YJ was Warden’s pushing for doc_oc’s lynching day one, however it seems after a reread that he wasn’t really making a strong case against doc_oc or showing preference of lynching one over the other," (p77)

A couple more questions.

@Both: During D2, pjmansfield (c. p.38 I think) said that PE, ghug, and YJ were his top suspects. Does anybody actively recall when he stopped mentioning ghug?

@ghug: When PE was coming after you, you mentioned three possibilities, offering a mathematical breakdown of what happened. As uclabb pointed out, you screwed up the math, acting as if lynching you was worse than having PE kill you. You said oh, sorry, but you had no reason to care between the two, so it was an honest mistake. But given that if you're mafia, you can roleblock, how could this be true? Isn't lynching clearly worse?

"@ghug, YJ spent quite a lot of energy fighting for Doc Oc instead of Capnmeme to be killed. This seems like a weird thing for a mafia member to do. Can you point to any times when you fought hard for one townie over another, or for one mafia over another?"

He said he preferred warden to pj day two, but he was mostly fighting to get neither of them lynched. He went with Squigs over other townies day three, and played a large part in getting that bandwagon going, but he waited to vote for a while and then freaked out at the end over the supposed pj slip. He voted bo over me yesterday, but that obviously doesn't really help you. I'm not sure exactly why he defended oct over meme day one other than to distance himself from the mislynch, but it should be noted that I did the reverse and played a prominent role in the final discussions, for whatever that's worth.

"@ghug, I find your case against YJ's behavior at the beginning of D2, and his alleged slip, very interesting. If you care to expand on it / analyze it more, I'd welcome the analysis. (Sorry, I could do this myself perhaps, but I am being inundated by things and having to reread huge swaths of text many times, so I'm asking for help on a few things)."

Really not much time. Top of page 28 if you want to look yourself. Basically, there were a ton of possibilities for what had happened at this point, given how little info we had, but he reduced it to only three, all of which assuming that the mafia had killed Vash. I can't see any reason to assume that, so the only conclusion is that he knew that the mafia had in fact killed Vash.

@ghug, right. I was asking more if YOU had ever fought for one tonwie over another, for example.

"@ghug: When PE was coming after you, you mentioned three possibilities, offering a mathematical breakdown of what happened. As uclabb pointed out, you screwed up the math, acting as if lynching you was worse than having PE kill you. You said oh, sorry, but you had no reason to care between the two, so it was an honest mistake. But given that if you're mafia, you can roleblock, how could this be true? Isn't lynching clearly worse?"

Yeah, I guess I messed that up. The honest answer is because I wasn't even thinking about the possibility of my being mafia when I said that, but of course you have no reason to believe that explanation. You'll note that I covered the possibility of my being mafia and roleblocking him when I listed the possibilities (p33). Do you really think I would publish intentionally misleading math with you and uclabb around? That'd be pretty dumb.

OK, thank you for the responses ghug.

By the way, are both of you going to be on for an hour or two before the deadline tomorrow?

Maybe, it's not certain though.

"@ghug, right. I was asking more if YOU had ever fought for one tonwie over another, for example."
I pushed for meme over doc oc. I pushed for Warden over pj. I voted Squigs over bo, though I was admittedly not very confident about it.

I'll try to address you both at once, as directed, here.

Ghug's comments first:

---

“RE: Vig
Killing inactives with lynches during the day is wasteful, as they don't really provide information about anyone when they flip and mafia are more likely to bus a teammate if that teammate is doing nothing. There's still a chance that those inactives are mafia though, so it's worthwhile for the vig to get rid of them, especially considering the fact that the vig has a decent chance of dying early himself.”

Yes, this is the line you've been pushing. I disagree absolutely, and it's clear to me that people well-versed in the game strategy agree with me, not you.

---

“RE: Night talking
I've explained why I thought it was a good idea not to talk multiple times now. The fact that you continue to ignore that is questionable. You're also ignoring my questions about your inconsistency. Why were you suddenly OK with night talking most nights after offering initial protest?”

I already corrected myself, when I saw you did attempt to address this. I maintain that you are wrong, it's just as bad on N1 as on N5, just not as obviously bad. I did not ignore you. I answered your question as to why I was OK with night talking in N2/N3/N4, clearly in my last post.

---

“RE: Cooling down
Warden chalked our conflict up to a difference in playstyle. I admitted that that was a possibility I should consider, but I kept pushing on him. That's not cooling down. I wasn't strongly reading pj as scum until later in day two, and that means I'm scum, but attacking him at the beginning also means I'm scum?”

No, it isn't proof by any means. Your early interactions with PJ and warden were a strange occurrence that I felt deserved mention. It is entirely odd how you found both of them so very quickly.

---

“RE: Roleblock
I admit that the roleblock does look a bit suspicious, but it's not as clear as you seem to think that Eden would be targeting me. Apparently it was, but killing me would have put a lot of suspicion on him, and it wasn't clearly the optimal play. He suddenly switched to townreading you with little explanation at the beginning of the night. Wouldn't it make sense for you to read that as him trying to distance himself from his planned nightkill? There's definitely a case for roleblocking PE with you as mafia.”

You can try to make that case, but if you measure up me vs. you on who he was more likely to roleblock, you are the clear favorite.

---

“RE: uclabb
How is this a slip? Please explain clearly what you mean. I said that he should get some attention that he was lacking. I was townreading him, but I wanted to make sure. That's what a good town player does.”

It was the timing, more than anything, and the fact that you hadn't been questioning uclabb at all previously. No, of course you as mafia shouldn't make mention of it. That's what a slip is. I admit I don't understand it, but the fact that it happened is strange in and of itself.

---

“[PJ's silence towards ghug is] all WIFOM. Maybe he did it because you wanted to have something to point out when trying to get me lynched. Maybe he did it because he didn't want to draw further suspicion to himself by going against a popular townread. Maybe he did it because I was his mafia buddy. This is not legitimate evidence.

Sure it is. He sees how town read you were, and didn't do anything to risk drawing the slightest attention to you.

---

“RE: You and bo, late game
I made it perfectly clear why I thought you and PJ were the most likely pairing, namely because Warden went hard after doc oc day one. When I went back and reread, I realized that he hadn't been pushing as hard as I thought, so I went back to bo, who had been my biggest scumread. You still haven't explained how these changes make me at all scummy.”

Yes, I have. I'm not saying it's scummy that you scumread me. It's scummy that you moved your vote from bosox onto squigs, without even questioning me, your #1 scumread. Again, how can you possibly justify that? Nothing had changed between us in the interim. You just let it go, taking the path of least resistance.

---

“RE: PJ and PE day one
You claimed PJ was a top scumread, but you didn't do anything about it. You questioned PE about him, said you wanted to lynch PE, and said that PE's innocence (non-mafianess) would clear PJ. That's an attempt to make it look like you suspect a teammate while actually clearing him.”

No, it was an attempt to link a possible scumteam between the two. I had no idea at the time PE was the SK, and I found their interaction strange. This was a justified suspicion in retrospect, because they both flipped scum, just not in the manner I suspected. I repeated several times I found PJ defensive and mildly scummy, independently of my read on PE.

---

“RE: End of day one
On page 19 you said you were willing to vote meme if he didn't answer, and then he didn't answer. You then gave an argument about lynching doc oc over captainmeme based solely on the info it would provide about PE. The important thing here is that you fought just enough to distance yourself from the lynch but not enough to actually get it changed. That's what's suspicious.”

You're taking one post out of the context of the greater picture. I already linked the pages where I offered several other reasons (P21-23) why Dr sox was the better lynch. You are continuing to base this argument off of obvious factual inaccuracies.

---

“RE: Beginning of day 2
PE claimed roleblock a few minutes in, not enough people had been online to confirm that a docsave hadn't happened, and you ignored any possibility that didn't involve the mafia targeting Vash because you knew that they had targeted Vash. *This* is the definition of a slip, not my wanting to reread uclabb.”

No, I corrected myself immediately. I did have that “gotcha” moment against PE, but then realized that a docsave could still have happened, and then began asking if anybody did. But I was reasonably sure there was no docsave, because of the way PE was construing his argument. HE knew there was no docsave, so he didn't bother trying to push that angle.

---

“RE: End of day two
You said Warden was scummy on page 44, and said "I will continue to vote PE unless I can cast an important vote against one of my preferred scum reads, that is to say warden, gauk, maniac." You had multiple chances to cast an important vote against Warden, but you didn't. On page 45, you said that Warden might be scummy, but that you wanted to reread. On pages 46-51, you made no mention of Warden other than that you preferred his death to PJ's and only tried to persuade people to move their votes off of him and PJ. Right before Chaqa posted that voting had ended, when it was clear that Warden's fate was decided, you went back to saying that Warden was super scummy. You tried to defend him as long as you could, and then you claimed he was scummy knowing you'd look good when he flipped as such.”

Again, there was no opportunity to place an “important” vote against warden. I was on PE, I wanted to lynch PE, and then warden became the leading BW, and I still wanted to lynch PE. Switching at that point would be meaningless.

---

“RE: Night two
Explain all you want, but votes are votes. You only voted pj when it was a foregone conclusion.”

I voted my reads, as I have throughout this game. I stated clearly early that night that my voting order preference was guak, maniac, PJ, and I voted accordingly.

---

Day 3:
"Yes, I saw it as confirmation. I found it highly unlikely that the mafia just fell asleep at the wheel on N2." It meant he was likely scum, but not certainly so. You knew it was certain and tried to be proactive in busing him. That's all I see here.”

Are you actually arguing that I was wrong to be convinced that PJ was almost certainly scum at this point? I think I'll just let that argument stand on its own merits.

---

“RE: Squigs
I had been somewhat suspicious of Squigs for a while when I voted for him, as had been made clear in my reads. It was not a vote without reasoning. What is suspicious is that you acted as a catalyst for his lynch, even misconstruing things to make your case look good, but you didn't vote for him until later in the hopes of distancing yourself from another mislynch.”

Really? Can you post where you justified a scumread squigs before you voted him? I see a list of voting preferences on from you P63 that, to your credit, says, “bosox, squigs, maniac, YJ.” I can't seem to find where you posted any actual reason you were scumreading squigs. To be fair, I could have missed it. Ultimately, though, you were content to push hard on bo, until I posted my reads, and then somebody else (gtlblx iirc) made a case against squigs. Once the BW formed on squigs you were all to happy to join it quickly. I am not ignoring your stated reason for doing so, but I think you were happy to save bo sox for the next day when the heat turned against squigs.

---

“RE: PJ's supposed slip.
I see you've dropped this, presumably because it points to your guilt. Please answer.”

Answer what question? I spelled it out clearly for semck already, and it seemed to satisfy him. PJ as mafia knows that squigs is about to die, and that he is innocent. When PJ, right before end of day, says 'I guess we scan YJ next,' I interpreted that to mean squigs was innocent. If squigs was guilty there would be no reason for PJ to bother, because it's game over, town win. I admit it could, at the time, have been a trick on PJ's part, but I did not think of that with only a bit of time to go.

---

“RE: Day 4
But it was clear that the mafia were going to roleblock Maniac. It just seems like a strange thing for you to say.

"And you let your '#1 scumread' YJ off without even questioning him, don't forget that part."
When you quote me, make sure you're actually quoting me. I made it pretty clear that bo was my #1 scumread at that point. You're my #1 scumread now, because I know you're scum, but you weren't then.”

And what was the reason for suddenly preferring bosox to me? What had changed in the interim?

---

“RE: Factual inaccuracies.
You're just misinterpreting things. Find one place where I lied, as you so claim.”

Your factual inaccuracies in your previous were:

1) claiming my only reason for wanting to lynch dr sox over capnmeme was “to gain information.” I listed many reasons, on P21-23 for preferring dr. sox.

2) Claiming I said I'd be “fine with lynching capnmeme... just before end of day,” because you were trying to paint me as scummy for saying “I told you so.” At no point did I make that statement close to end of day. I threatened him with a lynch with an hour or two to go if he didn't justify his actions (P19), but I did not follow through after he logged off, for reasons already given in (1). I never made a statement that would make a reasonable person suspect that I was "fine with lynching meme," and in fact I made several statements to the contrary.

3) Claiming that I ever said I preferred warden as a target to PE. I said (P44) that I would only switch off voting PE if I became convinced PE could not be lynched, and it would make a difference in lynching Warden over a less scummy target. I voted absolutely consistently with this.

4) Claiming my only relevant scum read on warden was after his death was a foregone conclusion. I did it long before then (P44), and continually maintained I would switch votes if necessary.


---

“Lastly, I'd like to look at the mafia kills briefly:
“Vash, apparently he made it obvious he was the vig. I'm assuming the mafia figured it out and killed him for it. He wasn't highly suspicious of either of us.
uclabb, a strong townie and one of YJ's strongest opponents. By the time he died, he wasn't scumreading me anymore, but YJ was his strongest read outside of the pj and guak everyone seemed to have at the time.
guak, he was the cop, they had to kill him.
Maniac, since he was the last town power and his identity was known, he could have been roleblocked every night and reduced to normal townie status. He suspected YJ though, and he died.
Gtl, he seemed more convinced of my innocence than semck, which means he was probably more likely to lynch YJ today. He died.”

Some of these are interesting, I agree. Vash and guak are not. I don't know why the mafia chose uclabb, and his death is one of the few incidentals in this game that does seem to reflect badly on me. Perhaps that's why he died. You knew from the start that I was going to be a dangerous opponent, and a difficult one to force a lynch upon. That's entirely speculation, of course.

Maniac is also interesting. You would have known by N3 that it was probably going to come down to me and you, with one of semck, maniac, or gtlblx remaining. But who to chose? None of them are stupid, and even maniac was not unreasonable in his interactions with me, despite his reads. You could try to claim that were you mafia, you would definitely have left maniac alive, but that just makes the entire thing WIFOM for the survivor.

Gtlblx seemed to be souring on his townread of you towards the end, and after rereading his final posts, I'm not at all convinced that he would have looked any less favorably upon me compared to you than semck would have.

Ultimately, I think semck should absolutely consider this carefully, but remember that it is the mafia who chooses who to kill, and for their own ends. Killing maniac could have easily been done just to make me look bad.



------------------------



Now onto semck's statements:

“@YJ, I don't think I really understand your ghug/uclabb point. How is it a scumslip to say "Look at uclabb" when you know uclabb's going to be dead soon? Isn't that something you WOULDN'T say, since you know he's going to be dead soon?”

Yes, that's why I read it as a slip. It simply doesn't make any sense at all. I'm not trying to paint it as proof of anything, I just find it a very strange statement.

---

“@YJ, why did you say, "Looks like somebody was fooled," not "Looks like somebody guessed right"?”

It's basically the same in meaning, right? The obvious docsave was guak, and so if maniac guessed the correct alternate, he basically fooled the mafia.

---

“@YJ, why did you consider PE and PJ linked on D1? Is there somewhere where you spell this out nicely?”

Sure, it was because PE seemed to attack PJ early, and then just when PJ started to get defensive, PE backed off. You can reference my thoughts at the time on P6 and P7.

---

“@YJ, I think ghug raises an interesting point. After Warden had already made his "one heck of a scumslip," you said you were really conflicted on him and needed to reread. Later, you said he had made "one heck of a scumslip." What caused you to conclude that in that time span?”

Well, the phrase I used was "confused about him," which is somewhat different in meaning than "conflicted." Conflicted implies that I'm trying to hedge my reads - which I was not. I was clear from P44 onwards that I preferred WD to anybody other than PE, so I had nothing to gain in the towns eyes by putting in that "heck of a scumslip" statement.

---

“@Both If you see actual factual inaccuracies in each other's claims, please be sure to highlight that very aggressively. I don't have time to reread every single claim, though I reread quite a few.”

@YJ, you did say ghug lied. Please spell out very clearly what he lied about.”

Sorry, I thought I had. I spelled it out again in my response to ghug, above. Search for "factual."

---

“@Yellowjacket (and Yellowjacket ONLY): when somebody is roleblocked and their power was not used, are they notified? How do you know?“

They are notified that they will be roleblocked by the GM, and I know because chaqa states it in the rules on P1: “The target of [mafia] factional roleblock WILL be notified that they have been roleblocked.”

---

“@Both: During D2, pjmansfield (c. p.38 I think) said that PE, ghug, and YJ were his top suspects. Does anybody actively recall when he stopped mentioning ghug?”

Unless I missed it, he never once mentioned ghug in any meaningful way after his scum-confirm in N2.

---

“By the way, are both of you going to be on for an hour or two before the deadline tomorrow?”

I'll try to be on for at least an hour.


---------------------------------


I hope I have made it clear where and when exactly ghug is misrepresenting the truth. I would also like to point out that he has still not addressed my point regarding D2. Why is it scummy for YJ to want PE dead for given reasons, but not scummy for ghug to want him dead for the exact same reasons (P31, 33,34), when ghug is at risk, but to flip flop immediately (P38) when he is convinced that PE will become a directed kill?

Wow. So I just discovered a massive scumslip that I and, apparently, everybody has previously missed. My mind is easily made up now. I'd go ahead and announce and vote end, but honestly, I've had to go through all this pain, so my observing fellow players might as well have to go through some too. :P

Alright, lots of things.

First, I'm gonna drop the vig/nighttalking thing. We've both explained ourselves pretty clearly, and it's up to semck to decide whose ideas are the scummy ones (yours). The last thing I'll say is that PE has agreed on the subject in both of the games, in one of which he was town. He probably has more experience than any of the rest of us, so if you're going to make appeals to authority, I'm going to as well.

"No, it isn't proof by any means. Your early interactions with PJ and warden were a strange occurrence that I felt deserved mention. It is entirely odd how you found both of them so very quickly."
Odd, nothing more. That wouldn't be the smartest thing to do if I were mafia.

"You can try to make that case, but if you measure up me vs. you on who he was more likely to roleblock, you are the clear favorite."
I don't disagree, but pretty much everything else points towards you. This is pretty much the only legitimate point against me, and when you consider how essential I was in catching all three of the confirmed scum, it doesn't hold much weight.

"It was the timing, more than anything, and the fact that you hadn't been questioning uclabb at all previously. No, of course you as mafia shouldn't make mention of it. That's what a slip is. I admit I don't understand it, but the fact that it happened is strange in and of itself."
A slip reveals somebody's scumminess. This is not a slip. This is, "if one assumes ghug is guilty, this thing he said about uclabb is slightly confusing." I understand that there has to be confirmation bias in both of our cases, but it should be in the form of looking for proof under a new light, not looking for anyone someone says and talking about it as if it's proof of something.

"Yes, I have. I'm not saying it's scummy that you scumread me. It's scummy that you moved your vote from bosox onto squigs, without even questioning me, your #1 scumread. Again, how can you possibly justify that? Nothing had changed between us in the interim. You just let it go, taking the path of least resistance."
You're calling yourself my "#1 scumread" again, at this point it is attempt to be intentionally misleading. Let's go through some relevant posts from those days:

Night 2, page 54:
I posted reads, explanation for my Squigs worry is in there if you want to go read it. I then gave a list of people from most to least scummy.
"Probable town:
uclabb
semck83
YJ
----------------------
Null/Possible Scum:
bo_sox48
Squigs44
Maniac
Gtlblx
----------------------
Probable scum:
Guak
Pjmansfield99"
Note that Gtl, guak, semck, and Maniac were all acquitted through role reveals by the time I was voting the next day, and uclabb died, so the relevant ordering from least to most town at that point was YJ, bo, Squigs. You were not my "#1 scumread" at this point.

Day 3, page 61. I vote bo. I never stated this explicitly because it never resolved himself, but I was trying to pressure him into actually playing. Accompanying my vote, I said "Why don't you do something then? At this point you're worse than your predecessor." I encouraged him later down the page, saying "there's no harm in trying and failing miserably. Better that than nothing at all," and later, "Yo, someone back me up on getting bo to do things."

Page 61. I give the preferred lynch ordering you referenced above. This was when I was still actively trying to pressure bo with my vote into being productive.

Page 61. "I don't get a stronger read out of bo, so I'd be fine voting for either [bo or Squigs]" I make clear that I read them as similarly scummy and would be willing to vote for either.

Page 68. "Yeah, I just looked at the vote tracker and didn't realize how hard Warden was pushing [on doc oc] there. Looking back, I doubt he would have bused that early, and he was certainly pushing." I vote for Squigs here, as I no longer see bo as a really viable lynch.

Night 3, page 72. "@pj because you are still my top scumread." PJ was my number one scumread, as he had been the whole time and would continue to be until his death.

Page 74. "Second, I think the most likely scumteam right now is pj and YJ. Even though Maniac's recent nonsense is nonsense, and bo was acting stupidly around end of phase, I think that bo is likely innocent due to Warden's going after him so hard early. I'll read back and try to connect pj/YJ/Warden when I get the chance to." This is when I moved you up to my #2 scumread after pj. I gave reasoning for it.

Page 77. "One of the things I found damning of YJ was Warden’s pushing for doc_oc’s lynching day one, however it seems after a reread that he wasn’t really making a strong case against doc_oc or showing preference of lynching one over the other." Here I move off of you and back onto bo.

Can you point out how any of this is inconsistent? You've been repeatedly referencing all of this as evidence that I'm scum, using your inaccurate "#1 scumread" tagline. I've explained enough of it that the fact that you're still painting it the way you are is evidence of your trying to intentionally mislead.

"No, it was an attempt to link a possible scumteam between the two. I had no idea at the time PE was the SK, and I found their interaction strange. This was a justified suspicion in retrospect, because they both flipped scum, just not in the manner I suspected. I repeated several times I found PJ defensive and mildly scummy, independently of my read on PE."
You're missing my point here. You said that you found it likely that PE and PJ were mafia together. Then you said that you'd prefer to lynch PE and clear pj by association. This is a nice way to clear your partner while still acting like you were pushing at him. PE's role as SK is irrelevant, because, as you said, you had no idea he was SK as opposed to vanilla at the time.

"You're taking one post out of the context of the greater picture. I already linked the pages where I offered several other reasons (P21-23) why Dr sox was the better lynch. You are continuing to base this argument off of obvious factual inaccuracies."
No I'm not. You attacked meme. When he started to gain traction, you stopped attacking him to distance yourself from a mislynch.

"No, I corrected myself immediately. I did have that 'gotcha' moment against PE, but then realized that a docsave could still have happened, and then began asking if anybody did. But I was reasonably sure there was no docsave, because of the way PE was construing his argument. HE knew there was no docsave, so he didn't bother trying to push that angle."
You made that claim first, not PE (see bottom of p27, top of p28). Your argument here applies to him, but it applies just as much to you. This is a scumslip.

"Again, there was no opportunity to place an “important” vote against warden. I was on PE, I wanted to lynch PE, and then warden became the leading BW, and I still wanted to lynch PE. Switching at that point would be meaningless. "
There was an opportunity to place an important vote on Eden. You said you'd vote Eden unless you could make a vote that mattered against any of your three scum candidates. Warden came up, and you didn't make that vote, instead trying to protect him.

"Are you actually arguing that I was wrong to be convinced that PJ was almost certainly scum at this point? I think I'll just let that argument stand on its own merits."
The fact that you didn't even doubt it is indeed suspicious. It was certainly possible that he was still innocent, and you refused to acknowledge that because you knew it wasn't possible.

"Really? Can you post where you justified a scumread squigs before you voted him? I see a list of voting preferences on from you P63 that, to your credit, says, “bosox, squigs, maniac, YJ.” I can't seem to find where you posted any actual reason you were scumreading squigs. To be fair, I could have missed it. Ultimately, though, you were content to push hard on bo, until I posted my reads, and then somebody else (gtlblx iirc) made a case against squigs. Once the BW formed on squigs you were all to happy to join it quickly. I am not ignoring your stated reason for doing so, but I think you were happy to save bo sox for the next day when the heat turned against squigs."
I covered this above.

"Answer what question? I spelled it out clearly for semck already, and it seemed to satisfy him. PJ as mafia knows that squigs is about to die, and that he is innocent. When PJ, right before end of day, says 'I guess we scan YJ next,' I interpreted that to mean squigs was innocent. If squigs was guilty there would be no reason for PJ to bother, because it's game over, town win. I admit it could, at the time, have been a trick on PJ's part, but I did not think of that with only a bit of time to go."
See, that logic just isn't convincing unless you know with absolute positivity that Squigs is innocent and pj is guilty. If Squigs had flipped guilty, pj would have had to go along as if he were innocent in order to attempt to win the game.

"And what was the reason for suddenly preferring bosox to me? What had changed in the interim?"
Again, addressed above.

RE: Factual inaccuracies.
"claiming my only reason for wanting to lynch dr sox over capnmeme was “to gain information.” I listed many reasons, on P21-23 for preferring dr. sox."
No, you didn't. You said he provided more information, and you urged others to switch. You didn't give any reasons other than information. If I'm missing something, please do tell me.

"Claiming I said I'd be 'fine with lynching capnmeme... just before end of day,' because you were trying to paint me as scummy for saying 'I told you so.' At no point did I make that statement close to end of day. I threatened him with a lynch with an hour or two to go if he didn't justify his actions (P19), but I did not follow through after he logged off, for reasons already given in (1). I never made a statement that would make a reasonable person suspect that I was 'fine with lynching meme,' and in fact I made several statements to the contrary."
I'm going to ignore the fact that you're misquoting me in an argument about factual inaccuracy and actually discuss the issue at hand. On page 22, you said, "I don't defend [captainmeme's] bs at all." At other points, you said you found what he had done suspicious. On page 23, once he flipped, you said, "Honestly though, I don't think this could have gone any other way." That's an attempt to distance yourself from the mislynch.

"3) Claiming that I ever said I preferred warden as a target to PE. I said (P44) that I would only switch off voting PE if I became convinced PE could not be lynched, and it would make a difference in lynching Warden over a less scummy target. I voted absolutely consistently with this."
Yes you did. "I find myself in the same situation I was in last night when I was voting Dr. O. I will continue to vote PE unless I can cast an important vote against one of my preferred scum reads, that is to say warden, gauk, maniac." Page 44.

"4) Claiming my only relevant scum read on warden was after his death was a foregone conclusion. I did it long before then (P44), and continually maintained I would switch votes if necessary."
You're misconstruing my claim. I'm just gonna quote myself here:
"You had multiple chances to cast an important vote against Warden, but you didn't. On page 45, you said that Warden might be scummy, but that you wanted to reread. On pages 46-51, you made no mention of Warden other than that you preferred his death to PJ's and only tried to persuade people to move their votes off of him and PJ. Right before Chaqa posted that voting had ended, when it was clear that Warden's fate was decided, you went back to saying that Warden was super scummy."

Also of note on the subject is that the meat of your argument against me, basically everything except my uclabb "slip," the night one roleblock, and the early day one suspicion is based misinformation about my reads from night three through night four.

RE: Dead people.
My case here boils down to uclabb, Maniac, and Gtl.
uclabb was pretty strongly suspicious of you. That's been addressed, and you don't disagree.
Maniac was pretty firmly against you. If I were mafia, I could have left him alive and gotten you lynched yesterday, leaving me in a final three with bo and my choice of confirmed townies, a situation I'm sure you would agree would be pretty damn good for me. You, on the other hand, were at risk of being lynched the next day, and you needed to get rid of the one (excepting bo) person who was sure to vote for you. It's more than WIFOM, as it constitutes a significant shift in the odds of winning.
The last thing Gtl said about me before the just before end of night stuff he posted was "[r]ereading reaffirmed ghug as Town for me. If he's Mafia he's been doing some crazy busing." (p79). Even in his end of night reads, he still thought you were probably scum. He was clearly a better choice for you to kill than semck.

"Unless I missed it, [pj] never once mentioned ghug in any meaningful way after his scum-confirm in N2."
He actually listed me as his second most likely scum after you on page 72, for whatever that's worth. PJ knew that everyone was pretty sure he was guilty and he'd be flipping soon. It was pretty clear that this meant he wasn't going to be taken seriously by anyone. As a result, he pretty much agreed with the town on everything, except when you came up, and then he was emphatic about attacking you. I maintain that this was an attempt to distance himself from you.

A few other things to note with regards to PJ. On page 68 (day 3), when the YJ wagon was starting to gain traction, he switched off of YJ and back to squigs "[i]n following [his] promise to stick with the confirmed townies." This strikes me as very suspicious.

On page 74, after I said that he and YJ were the most likely scumteam, pj got defensive: "Lol - so far, I've been tagged as a partner with everyone - now it's YJ, the guy I've wanted to kill from D1 and have tried to push everyone else on. Yep that makes sense." This was the only time he really acted defensively once he was basically outed. This along with his switch off of YJ make it pretty clear that he's actively trying to defend YJ despite what he's been saying.

Finally, "I hope I have made it clear where and when exactly ghug is misrepresenting the truth. I would also like to point out that he has still not addressed my point regarding D2. Why is it scummy for YJ to want PE dead for given reasons, but not scummy for ghug to want him dead for the exact same reasons (P31, 33,34), when ghug is at risk, but to flip flop immediately (P38) when he is convinced that PE will become a directed kill?"
The matters of truth have been addressed up above. With regards to day 2, I understood that we were going to get at most two attempted nightkills out of PE, one of whom being me, someone I knew to be innocent. That would not have been good for the town. When he agreed to follow our wishes, my stance changed because the situation changed. I think that's pretty clear.

Semck, that's wonderful news.