That analogy doesn't work. You need some kind of Protestant feeling in order to be an Orangeman. The problem for the Protestants is not just that their heart isn't into it anymore but that they're emigrating. Without a big power as a backer the unionist cause is doomed. The whole world's sympathy is not with them. The IRA was able to rely on outside sources of support to continue the struggle. Minorities can only paralyze politics if they have powerful outside backers. There's a book on this phenomenon by EK Jenne called 'Ethnic Bargaining' which goes into detail about this.

The Catholic birthrate in Northern Ireland is undergoing demographic momentum, and is growing, while the Unionist and British birthrate, like mainland England and the rest of Western europe, is collapsing. if it comes to this, sooner or later there will be an irish catholic majority that votes for unification with the mainland.

What is with the whole "Catholic versus Protestant" shit? I thought Europe was so civilized, but it seems they are almost as bad as the Muslims and the Jews in Israel/Palestine. For crying out loud. the Catholics, Protestants, and Jews (and the peaceful Msulims and any other religion for the most part) all get along fine over here. Why the fuck can't you all get along?

It's not really true that you need to be more than culturally Protestant to be an Orangeman. And even then there's Ulster nationalism to fall back on. As for all the Protestants fleeing, even if that were as true and simple as you say (and I doubt it) it doesn't really change my point. No matter how many leave a lot will inevitably stay. I can't imagine ever seeing the North being 90% Catholic like the South, and those Protestants still there would be exactly the sort who would do everything to preserve the status quo to protect their interests.

Much of the population of Northern Ireland view themselves as a separate people. You may not like it and I may not like it but they do. I can't see a scenario where the Protestant 49% or even 29% (which will never happen) just accedes to a United Ireland when they've invested so much energy and suffering to preserve their separateness.

This is all assuming the Republic even would want reunification. A United Ireland sounds great in theory, but it carries with it a mess of social problems. I wish it could work, but I can't see how.

Extrapolating a Catholic v Protestant animosity across Europe from the problem of a tiny portion of Ireland is more ridiculous than your usual posts, Draugnar. Anyway, with all this random banning of mosques and anti-sharia law legislation in places with barely any Muslims I don't think your self-satisfied scolding impresses anyone. Culture matters.

I am not so sure that a catholic majority in the North would necessarily mandate a united island of Ireland. This from the Irish Independent:

http://www.independent.ie/opinion/columnists/kevin-myers/kevin-myers-our-politicians-who-steered-the-ship-onto-the-iceberg-have-walked-away-with-fortunes-2874524.html

In addition to this State producing chronic failure, it also fails to perceive this failure as intrinsic to its political culture. Suicidal grandiosity is part of that culture. Suicidal grandiosity lay at the core of the Rising. Suicidal grandiosity gave us the Economic War with our only trading partner, the British Empire, a conflict which it didn't notice but almost destroyed Ireland. Suicidal grandiosity led to De Valera's condolences upon Hitler's death. Suicidal grandiosity caused Haughey to fund the formation of the Provisional IRA. Suicidal grandiosity killed the Celtic Tiger. And suicidal grandiosity is now enabling an entire generation of senior civil servants to waddle off into the sunset with millions of money borrowed from our grandchildren.

Invictus, I know you just have to disagree with me even about the most trivial points, but yes you have to be a religious Protestant to be a member of the Orange Order.

"The Independent Loyal Orange Institution is a "religious and loyal brotherhood" dedicated to the promotion and defence of the Protestant religion. We are not, and never have been allied to any political party. Constitutionally we express a unionist view, but that unionism is dependent upon the British Throne and Constitution "being Protestant"."

"We unapologetically declare our unchanging attachment to the Historic Evangelical Protestant Faith. We stand with the Reformers in declaring the Bible alone, Grace alone, Faith alone and Christ alone as the tenets of our faith. Consequently we reject Romanism, Ritualism, Sacramentalism, Unitarianism and Ecumenism. Ecumenical contact with the Church of Rome is contrary to the Word of God, subversive to the Gospel of Free Grace and detrimental to the well being of the state."

Look at any Orange Order website and see you this same theme.

"The Loyal Orange Institution of England is a part of the Worldwide Orange fraternity, being made up of an unlimited number of Protestants, whose staunch beliefs are based on the Reformation principles and truths of the Open Bible."

Also let's not forget that Ireland was the only non-fascist country to send more volunteers to Franco than to the Spanish republic.

I'll say it again. If a vocal and potentially violent Catholic minority was enough for Britain to let former IRA terrorists into the devolved Northern Irish government, then a vocal and potentially violent Protestant minority will be enough to prevent reunification. Neither side can win, so the status quo will linger indefinitely. It's too bad.

Right, because the rightwing Kevin Myers represents all northern Irish opinion...somehow.

So now Fulham has resorted to listing a litany of anti-Irish complaints that are completely irrelevant to anything we've been talking about. Oh well, when in doubt, resort to cheap bigotry. That always works.

Anyway the Franco issue has more to do with the fact that Franco turned down volunteers from other non-fascist countries than it has to do with Ireland. Unlike the pro-Franco volunteers, the Irish Republicans actually did a lot of fighting in the civil war.

Notice how I said "culturally Protestant?" These people are basically Knights of Columbus who pick fights. At any rate, Orangmen is a common phrase for unionist groups in general. This line of thinking will always exist and so will the potential for unionist paramilitaries. Thinking anything else is silly.

Even when we don't really disagree you need to make us disagree. I want a United Ireland but don't think it's possible. If I can get past my ethnic sympathies and even family connections to the cause to see that then you should be able to get past your sympathies with the left-wing ideology with the IRA to see it.

Putin33, everything fulhamish said is true. The Irish are a great people who can't run a government well at all. Look not further than the fact that there are actually LESS Gaelic speakers now than there were at independence and the sheer incompetence at all levels which lead to the current crisis.

Yes I noticed, which is why I pointed out the extensive use of religious appeals in every single Orange Order website.

I don't why being a sell out or defeatist is considered a badge of honor. People love to flash their turnocoat credentials in order to seem reasonable. Sorry, I'm not impressed by defeatism masquerading as "sympathy".

Nor am I impressed with your ability to keep repeating the same point without substantiating it. Or with your equivocation of the term Orangeman to mean "all unionists". Orangeman has explicit Protestant supremacist connotations that have nothing in common with the Knights of Columbus. Just admit you're wrong for once.

Rightwingers used to hail Ireland as a celtic tiger and a model of conservative economic governance (low tax rates to attract investment). Now the global economic crisis is being used to impugn the entire existence of an independent Irish government, as if they've done nothing right in the past 70 years. The language issue is a real cheap shot. English is a universal language of social advancement. Many countries have found it hard to resist those headwinds, let alone one that was politically and culturally devoured by English speakers. It's not as if Scotland has been any better at stemming the decline by not being independent. Or maybe the Gaelic speaking race in general is just not as intelligent and competent as Anglo-Saxons?

I won't admit I'm wrong, because I'm not. You're being overly specific.

Don't call me a sell out on this. I'm just looking at the information and coming to a conclusion. Since there was so much unrest with a Catholic minority I see no reason that a Protestant minority would be more calm and condusive to reunification. I mean really, why should it be the case that with a Catholic majority suddenly all the problems of partition are solved and the Protestants will just accept a political solution anathema to them?

This is why it's never any use talking to you.

And I explained to you why the conditions would be different. You instead ignored the points and keep repeating yourself. Yes, it's generally useless to communicate if you have no intention of listening to any responses.

My family came from a Gaeltacht area, Putin33. Apart from street signs the government did nothing to preserve the language and a great aunt of mine was the last speaker when she died in the 60s. It's not a cheap shot to point out the failure of the Irish government to keep Irish a living language.

The number of Gaelic schools has increased. Gaelic is an official EU language. Stop piling on with your usual pessimism and cynicism. Why don't you do your part and study the language yourself? The failure to adequately fund and promote Gaelic does not mean the Irish government in general is a failed enterprise from beginning to end. And I don't see how it's relevant to the northern Irish question, where Gaelic was systematically repressed as being subversive.

When one man was shot,
I did nothing
for it was not my problem.

When two men died of illness,
I did not cry
for it was not myself.

When ten women were stoned,
I sat and watched
for I do not want to get involved.

When 5.7 million people were slaughtered
I stood back and observed
with the rest of the world
for it was not my problem.

When it comes my time to die
no one will help me
for it is not their problem
and I would not die for them.

how poetic. I'll remember not to take up arms against my country and advocate the slaughter of innocent civilians so my time to die doesn't come any time soon.

"...as long as the Protestant majority doesn't want to live under a United, Catholic Ireland it isn't going to happen."

and we all hope and pray that modern Ireland will continue to abandon it's Catholic upbringing. :p

There was an economic arguement that Northern Ireland should have joined the Euro-zone... it's on hold at the moment pending the resolution of the current currency crisis...

@Invictus, really, i didn't know you came from a Gaeltacht area... my dad is a Gaelgoir, though he never spoke much Irish to me as i grew up...

A United Ireland is not something which is realistic today, and in the bigger picture it is just an arbitrary division, apart from the actual day-to-day effects i don't see the issue.

Today most of the security problems have been resolved. Police and Justice powers have been devolved to the Stormont assembly. The locals now have enough trust in each other and their institutions to handle things themselves, and i hope this continues.

So long as the peace continues i don't really care whether the island is united politically. My great grandfather may have thought a blood sacrifice was worth it, but i hope we have, as a society and culture, moved beyond such symbols.

I don't, one of my grandmothers' family did. No idea where other than it isn't Gaeltacht anymore.

I agree the status-quo seems to be working well enough with the Good Friday agreement. however, I have huge doubts that the security situation would hold if any move were made to integrate the North back into the rest of the country. The Protestants would rise up and recreate their latent paramilitaries just as the IRA would if the British tried to bring back direct rule.

But apparently thinking that makes me a "defeatist" and a "turncoat."

The Ulster Unionist party didn't sign on to the devolution of justice & police, and I doubt they're going to just disappear as a political entity. The current "status quo" has only existed for one year. The passage of devolved justice powers was followed by a number of attacks and riots. You can't build relations of trust at the government level in a segregated/barricaded society.

The fact that a significant amount of unionists are so opposed to even devolution would seem to suggest that reunification would be virtually impossible. Eh, whatever...

''Anyway the Franco issue has more to do with the fact that Franco turned down volunteers from other non-fascist countries than it has to do with Ireland. Unlike the pro-Franco volunteers, the Irish Republicans actually did a lot of fighting in the civil war. ''

What sort of mad reworking of history is this? Come off it man.

Eoin O'Duffy (Irish: Eoin Ó Dubhthaigh; 20 October 1892 – 30 November 1944) was in succession a Teachta Dála (TD), the Chief of Staff of the Irish Republican Army (IRA), the second Commissioner of the Garda Síochána, leader of the Army Comrades Association and then the first leader of Fine Gael (1933–34), before leading the Irish Brigade to fight for Francisco Franco during the Spanish Civil War. He once proclaimed himself the "third most important man in Europe" after Adolf Hitler and fellow fascist Benito Mussolini.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eoin_O%27Duffy

And then there is Sean Russel whose statue still stands in a Dublin park

Six million Jews, thousands of political dissidents, homosexuals, Roma people, Soviet prisoners of war and the disabled were put to death by the fascist hate machine that overran and terrified Europe from 1939 to 45. Sean Russell was one of many nationalist fanatics who looked to Hitler for political and military support in the IRA's quest to reunify Ireland at the point of the bayonets of the Gestapo. At the Wannsee conference, the infamous Nazi gathering that planned the "Final Solution", the Jewish community in Ireland was marked down for annihilation. Having freed Ireland from British rule, the Nazis expected their collaborators to help them round up Dublin's Jews and ship them off to Auschwitz. That was the price Sean Russell was prepared to pay to end partition.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Se%C3%A1n_Russell

Of course one must underestimate those brave Irishmen who fought for the allies. Indeed, I knew one well in London, a terrific man and great Irish patriot, sadly no longer with us, who told me that he was completely ostracised when he went back to Ireland after the war because he ''wore a British uniform.''

And then there is that book of condolences.

I would say that one of the biggest obstacles to a united Ireland is that there really isn't any point to it. The border between the Republic and UK is pretty much non existant. There are no passport checks, trains go to and from as if it wasn't there, and tourists often finding themselves driving from one side to the other without even realising they've done it. You can even use Euros in a lot of Northern Irish shops if you really wanted to.

When it comes down to it the British and the Irish are essentially the same. Indeed, there are more people in the UK who are eligable to apply for an Irish passport than there are in the Republic. The people have the same blood, the same language, and the same culture (there are a few differences, but none of them greater than the differences you'd find between, say, Devon and London in England). Chief amongst the similarities of the people who inhabit the delightful bunch of green and soggy islands off the north east of Europe is a stubborn independent streak. It has been this that has led to the Republic being independent of London, Wales and Scotland choosing the path of devolution, and Northern Ireland running itself (more or less). It is this same instinct, however, that will prevent the North from having any great desire to give up their self governence in exchange for the delights of political rule from Dublin and financial rule from Brussels.

Octavious I absolutely agree. Although in the longer-term rule from Brussels will implode, likely to be replaced by de facto rule from Berlin.