Having a fleet in Norway helps you manipulate the key ocean zones of North Sea, Norwegian Sea, and Skagerrak. Building StP NC is headed directly to Norway. If Germany let you into Sweden, it's a good way to show you're not headed his way.

Agree on Norway being critical. But if your front is on England, then you need Germany on your side - so you're probably giving him Sweden in exchange for Norway. I usually prefer moving my Swedish fleet to Norway and then onto the Norwegian, pushing an army behind it, supporting Germany into the North Sea, and then convoying onto the English mainland. I still don't see a use for a second Russian fleet. If things go bad in the South, an army StP build can be swung south as well.

Offer Germany a fleet build in stp nc in return for sweden, saying that you will subsequently support yourself into norway and give him sweden. Usually a decent plan.

You don't need Germany on your side, per se. You just need him not to interfere. If Germany is locked up with France, which happens from time to time, you're going to need another boat.

@swordsman: In two years time, Russia has a fleet in Norway and one is Sweden. One would feel very vulnerable at this point. As Germany, the further away that original fleet is from the Baltic, the more comfortable I am.

@SD I think as Russia, I wouldn't fight England if I could avoid it. I most certainly wouldn't fight him if I had no help. There really isn't much scope for profit - by which I mean gaining more centers than the units needed to hold them with. If F/G are killing each other, wouldn't the best approach be to negotiate a treaty with England and get him to help one of them against the other? Preferably keep them all as entangled as possible until the east gets resolved?

@santosh
Sorry for being unclear, I moving sweden to norway with the st pete fleet for support. If Germany moves a fleet to sweden, as per the arrangement, it would cut support and keep england's norway unit in place, so if russia betrays you, you've made a pro-english move anyways.

As Russia, I'm always desirous of having a secure border with England. A three center England is a happy day for me because he won't be going into St. Pete's and wrecking my day. I think that England has the most potential to make things difficult for Russia of any power, and you have to contain, contain, contain. If England convoys into Norway in 1901, he can (depending on your defense) leverage StP in 1902. Nip that in the bud.

Yeah I know where you're coming from SD.
As England, I'm always trying to figure out how to capture st pete, because that's a source of fleets that can be totally cut off. Even if Russia does well elsewhere, an army in livonia and moscow is usually not enough for anybody to take st pete away from a power controlling it by sea.

Another thing though - if Russia is on the defensive and has a fleet already in Norway, plugging a fleet into Barents will give England (or any aggressor) a very, very hard time reclaiming Norway

As Russia, I wouldn't mind fighting England with Norway and a fleet in either Bar or Norwegian if I could get it there. It keeps Germany and France (assuming they're hostile) locked with each other because England can't concentrate on helping either of them all that much. You're also gaining in the south if you've made good gains in the South by 1903 or so, you may be nearly unstoppable as the Eastern power while England, France, and Germany all stagnated at the end of 1901

Yeah that's always the best situation with Russia; grow on one end while one sphere does nothing, then use the builds to take over the stagnated end & claim victory.

You know, I've seen a lot of people mention Russia giving Sweden to Germany while Russia takes Norway.

Considering Russia has lower prospects of gaining anything from England than Germany, I have to ask... why? I never ask for this move as Germany, and have never had it asked of me as Russia (and would certainly turn it down if offered).

I would absolutely ask for it if I was Germany, though, as Russia, it's reasonable to turn it down. I think it's Russia's way of trying to keep Germany appeased enough so that he
1. focuses on France or England and
2. Doesn't decide to ally in the North with England

Well, I might ask for it as Germany from now on, in the same vein that I might ask Austria for Greece as Italy or Turkey... I just am surprised to see so many people consider that a standard move, I guess.

My experience is that Russia's worst fear in the west is E/G. In the end, I don't think Russia and Germany can be allies, but at the start of the game, I would do anything as Russia to induce Germany into pissing off England.
Also, I think that early game the only player Russia can *really* fear in the north is England. Germany isn't going to try take st pete or warsaw until midgame most likely. As long as st pete is open, and Russia gains something elsewhere, he has the option of producing units in st pete and taking the game into the north. If you lose st pete early...the odds of getting it back are pretty slim, and the chance of being a meaningful power in the north are next to nil.

The thing that I think is so strong about Russia is that option to try to grow in two totally different areas. I think other powers are more easily screwed over in that they can get into situations that attempting to grow will cause another power to get far too strong, so you have to do nothing basically. That's really boring.

@PE
I always ask for Greece as turkey. If austria isn't moving the fleet to albania, then there's a good chance of getting it. I also try to get Austria to give me greece in return for Rumania.
If Austria is ever going to ally to turkey, he pretty much has to give him greece, because Turkey should become a naval power in A/T.

Germany has got to get a sixth center from somewhere. Where can this center come from? It could be Holland, with English support. As Russia, I like it when England and Germany don't trust each other too much, the less trust the better. The only other possible sixth center is Sweden. Germany could either wrench it from you with a second fleet build - you can't stop that from happening, or you could willingly give it way with the swap, in the process, getting both your northern units into neighboring supportable positions again, somewhat securing your northern front, and a temporarily friendly Germany.

I agree with you santosh. If Germany REALLY wants sweden, the only way to stop him is a joint English-Russian effort...which is pretty damn rare.

In response to the original "when would you ever" question: though after most openings it is not too useful, with a certain strong northern push, building F StP (NC) is necessary (I am talking theoretically here, I don't like to push north early as Russia).
S01: F StP-GOB, A Mos-StP
F01: F GOB-Swe, A StP-Fin
With the idea of hitting Norway in 1902. Later you could even potentially swing against Germany (e.g. Nor-SKA, Swe-BAL, Fin-Swe!). So it's definitely possible.

"If Germany REALLY wants sweden, the only way to stop him is a joint English-Russian effort...which is pretty damn rare."

Doesn't mean it never happens though. ;)

I am intrinsically against E/G alliances, so as germany, anything that cements a russo-german pact is a good thing. i definitely like allowing russia into sweden in return for a walk in after norway has been taken. Awesome idea :)