Wow, the national association for the advancement of fat acceptance?

Hibiskiss, This goes back to 2 pages ago, when I said "i don't want to pay for your healthcare" . With public healthcare, I have to pay for the knee replacement and stomach stapling and diabetes, as do you. So you laugh about naafa, but you are ok with paying for the consequences of poor eating?

@Hibikiss

Everyone should be taught the value of a proper balanced diet - not the lazy rubbish that there are 'healthy' and 'unhealthy' foods. Yes, you shouldn't eat pizza or burgers everyday, but if they fit into a balanced diet, there's no reason why you can't have them on a reasonably regular basis.

If everyone took the adage of 'everything in moderation', and if you're overweight applied the 'eat less, do more' diet, that's all that's needed.

Drug companies are to blame through the medicalistion of everything, and also the weird power of the human brain. Nurofen is more effective when it comes in its box than when its not. Similarly, it appears to be more effective than generic paracetamol, even though the active component is precisely the same (I would link to the research but I'm too lazy :)

Costs can be controlled - but even in the NHS it's not as tight as it should be. Doctors should be using generics where possible, and using less anti-biotics. Patients should complete their courses to ensure infections are eradicated.

@ Pete:

Nurofen - that really gets on my nerves too. Ordinary Nurofen is just ibuprofen - it has no extra active ingredients compared to generic ibuprofen. A pack of 12 Nurofen in my local supermarket is £2.99 (and in many places it's more expensive) and RIGHT NEXT TO IT on the shelf is the equivalent own-brand generic ibuprofen, which costs 48 pence for a pack of 16. And yet still a fair proportion of people, possibly even the majority, buy the Nurofen! Basically just because it's the brand they've seen on television.

If ever you wanted an example of how stupid people can be in modern society, there you have it. If the majority people had a brain, Nurofen would either go out of business or have to slash the price of their product.

*if the majority OF people had a brain...

@DbJ - the one thing that is never debated oner here is what should and shouldn't be on the NHS. I'd challenge the need for plastic surgery that isn't 1) reconstructive or 2) pain alleviating (e.g breast reduction), IVF and other, 'elective' operations on the NHS. IMHO there should be fines for people who just don't turn up for appointments (around 10% are missed, and I would guess around 50% (min) are those who just can't be bothered)

We are forever dealing with the impact of lifestyle choices - one of the reasons we spend so much on cancer & heart care is because we've stopped people dying of the things they used to, so soemthing has to 'do the job'.

Prevention is better than cure - if the NHS stapling someones stomach costs less than dealing with the impact of them being obese, staple the stomach - do the maths, and treat accordingly. Encourage them to eat less and do more as well by all means.

I'm lucky - I'm pretty healthy, and so are my family. I'm also lucky that I know no matter what injury or illness hits me, there is a system in pace that will help me, or anyone else.

@Jamie - as I said (getting my painkillers mixed up), studies show that because it's branded, people find Nurofen more effective, through the wonderous placebo effect. If you give them the same tablet without the box, it's efficacy drops!

I like to think because I know it's the same, they're both equally effective. I'm not going to subject myself to pain to find out though :)

Pete,
That's great in theory, but the system economically encourages people to eat at McDonalds for every meal.

For right now, eating every meal there saves me tons of money. McDonalds, or processed food from the grocery store, is much cheaper than healthier alternatives. Besides, when I get old and fat and need a new knee and stomach stapling, I don't have to pay for either of those. So why eat healthy? Medicine will fix it and I won't have to pay for it! Woohoo, gimme more pills!

Jamie and Pete,
Thats the same with any product, whether ibuprofren or ketchup.

There was a recent study I read where putting luxury brand names on everyday items makes people think they are better when compared to the exact same product but with a no-name brand on it. Put Omega on a wallet and present it along with exact same wallet by "Wallets-r-us" and people perceive the Omega as the better wallet. The next thing we'll see is designer named OTCs. Aspirin from Cartier and cough syrup from Gucci.

P.S. I work for a marketing firm, so these studies appear in the various advertising mags and websites that the system links to on our employee homepage.

I don't laugh, I cry. With private healthcare you have to pay for those things through increased premiums just the same. I wouldn't be happy about funds going towards those cases but I am willing to accept that some of the money would as long as it prevents more deserving people from suffering into endless debt and lowers the burden of costs on all of us.

I consider myself pretty successful, but I, and probably almost everyone else here is merely one medical emergency away from everything we've worked hard for to fall apart.

Well, I hope not with the insurance I have. And I would imagine most from the US here have quality insurance of a co-pay nature as well.

I am NOT one medical emergency away. With my health insurance, disability insurance, LTD, etc... That's the whole idea of working for a corporation.

Well not everyone can work for a corporation or for the government. If you work for or run a small business you get preyed upon by the current situation in America. I don't think a public option or universal healthcare or any other similar ideas being the ONLY solution at all.

However, I really have a hard time believing that we'll ever have insurance reform without massive overhaul in the form of a public option type deal because the Republicans in Washington only care about protecting their corporate lobbyist interests and the Democrats are torn between reform or protecting those same corporate lobbyist groups.

The people who would benefit the most from massive insurance reform or a government public option are angry at the wrong people. The lobbyists effectively have the public on their side against government through misleading information and scare tactics.

Lobbyists have destroyed the effectiveness of our Government like a cancer that needs to be cut out.

Hibiskiss, I agree, not everyone can work for a corporation. I was just disagreeing with your statement "probably almost everyone else here is merely one medical emergency away from everything we've worked hard for to fall apart."

I'm with Dingle. I left a small company of 12 people for just that reason. I work for a larger company (still an SMB of <100 people) with a huge client (largest manufacturer of consumer products in the world) and we are their sole promotions/marketing firm in North America and we are working on getting their South America and Puerto Rican business as well. Because we/they are a spinoff of them and another Fortune 500 company, they've always had good benefits and it was for that reason I took a pay cut and went to work for them. The little guy promised me they would have insurance by the time my COBRA ran out. They didn't, so I left them and sued them for breach of contract (it was in my hiring agreement) when after the second year there, they still didn't have it.

Anyone who wants to and has the skills can work for a major corporation or at least find a SMB with decent benefits. Well, they will be able to if the economy ever recovers. Might be a bit tougher right now to find that perfect job with excellent benefits.

@Dingle: "Thats the same with any product, whether ibuprofren or ketchup"

Not necessarily. Different brands of ketchup may contain different ingredients in different concentrations. Quality brands may contain a higher proportion of tomatoes, whereas cheap brands are often slightly more watery. I know for a fact that 'Heinz' ketchup tastes different from 'Daddies' ketchup (another popular ketchup brand here in the UK) for example, because I happen to have bottles of both in my kitchen just now, and I just went and compared them.

Whereas, with Nurofen versus generic ibuprofen, there is NO DIFFERENCE WHATSOEVER in terms of the ingredients. So whereas there may be actual physical difference between one ketchup recipie and another, with Nurofen / ibuprofen the ONLY difference is marketing.

With generic medicine (in the US at least) the ACTIVE ingredients may be the same, but the inactive ones may be different. And even with an ingredient list the same, you don't know the proportions of all the ingredients. So trying to say ibuprofen and ketchup are any different in terms of marketing is a fallacy.

Case in point:
Ingredients in Advil (leading ibuprofen in America): Each brown, sugar-coated tablet/caplet contains ibuprofen 200 mg. Nonmedicinal ingredients: acetylated monoglyceride, beeswax, carnauba wax, corn starch, croscarmellose sodium, ethoxyethanol, iron oxides, lecithin, microcrystalline cellulose, parabens, pharmaceutical glaze, pharmaceutical shellac, povidone, pregelatinized starch, silicon dioxide, simethicone, sodium benzoate, sodium lauryl sulfate, stearic acid, sucrose and titanium dioxide.

Ingredients in my store brand Ibuprofen with the same 200mg of ibuprofren:

Ingredients: Active Ingredient (in each Brown Tablet): Ibuprofen USP (200 mg). Inactive Ingredients: Carnauba Wax, Cellulose, Corn Starch, Fumed Silica Gel, Hypromellose, Lactose, Magnesium Stearate, Polydextrose, Polyethylene Glycol, Red Iron Oxide, Sodium Starch Glycolate, Stearic Acid, Titanium Dioxide.

DbJ - the point is it's the active ingredient that works. The 200mg of ibuprofen is what kills the pain. The ingredients in ketchup determine the flavour, colour and flow (the key elements of ketchup performance). Only the active ingredient matters - the rest is window dressing.

Pete, says who? Why would the public have any knowledge of that?

@Draugnar "Anyone who wants to and has the skills can work for a major corporation or at least find a SMB with decent benefits."

Are you really suggesting that EVERYONE can work for a large corporation that offers good healthcare? At some point they're all going to be staffed up, What does everyone else do? Are you really suggesting that if you don't have really good health insurance it's entirely your fault, and that you don't deserve it?

@DingleberryJones - "With public healthcare, I have to pay for the knee replacement and stomach stapling and diabetes, as do you. So you laugh about naafa, but you are ok with paying for the consequences of poor eating?"

But the point is you're paying for it anyway, one way or the other. We pay more for health care than any other country in the world, but our lifespans aren't any longer.

As to your question about over-medication etc, I agree that is a problem, but I think that has a lot more to do with the cost incentives that doctors, hospitals etc have. They get paid more for performing surgeries and such than for simple consultations and preventative care. I honestly don't think that that is the cause of the majority of our higher healthcare costs, though it does certainly contribute. This is something we need to work on, but it is a separate (though not opposing by any means) goal to the reform of our health insurance system.

@DbJ - are you questioning what works in a painkiller. It's the active ingredient - that's why it's called active! People respond to the 'fact' that it's a brand name - no-one really understands this, but it seems to be true. It's the same mechanism that shows a sugar pill has some painkilling impact (because pills make us better), and a saline injection has an even bigger impact (because injections are better than pills).

So Nurofen charge 4x the price but don't deliver 4x the benefit (I don't know the size of the placebo effect in this case, but I think it's in the 10-20% range) - and this is when the user knows the brand. Once you get out of common over-the-counter drugs, no-one knows the difference between the names, so that effect should disappear. I don't kow if that research has been done though

Pete, I'm not questioning what works in a pain killer. I'm questioning what the average schlub is supposed to think about what works in a painkiller. 'Active' and 'Inactive'?

@DrOct - I didn't say EVERYONE. Read what I wrote.

"Anyone who wants to and has the skills can work for a major corporation or at least find a SMB with decent benefits."

Now read closely "AND HAS THE SKILLS". That precludes 75% or more of the population. Now read "or at least find a SMB with decent benefits." I didn't say JUST a major corporation.

When you learn to read beyond the 8th grade, let me know. Then we'll talk...

Oh, one more thing, DrOct. Companies don't offer good healthcare. They may offer good health insurance. But healthcare is provided by doctors and nurses and hospitals. There is a difference that once again eludes your comprehension skills.

@Dingle: "I'm not questioning what works in a pain killer. I'm questioning what the average schlub is supposed to think about what works in a painkiller."

But you threrefore must admit that in terms of painkillers, it's simply about the customer's perception, heavily influenced by advertising. Whereas with ketchup there are ACTUAL differences of flavour, consistency etc which might matter to the discerning customer.

Your ketchup example was therefore innacurate - you were not comparing like with like.

I don't believe my ketchup example was inaccurate. If you gave people two bottles of ketchup, one was Heinz, and the other was a generic bottle but FILLED with Heinz, which do you think would win a taste test?