https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P_MJbgO7SF0

Ep8 > Sonic Adventure 2

James Yaniks bottle of Lotion > Death Star

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bpszIdtcWQc

Okay, gotta resurrect this thread because I finally saw it the other day. obviously, SPOILERS:


So I actually feel this was a really good film, it could have been a masterpiece or great, but it does have some obvious flaws, but I feel anyone who points to one of those flaws and calls it terrible is exaggerating (hi goldie). So what I’m going to do is go over the main criticisms I’ve seen in this thread, and why I think some of them hold and some don’t, add any that I think were missed and finally explain why I liked the film. Hopefully I say something new along the way.

So first Re: Plot Holes.

Yeah there are plot holes. No gravity in space, characters knowing/not knowing/not telling things, the entire plan going unsaid which led to a mutiny. But mostly, these could be easily handled without much need (tiny thrusters on the bombs, conversations or the force, keeping the plan from moles until needed) and even if they can’t be, I don’t care that much. Like all good and great films have plot holes (spoilers for Jaws and the Matrix here), there’s no way the shark in Jaws could have blown up that way or how does Cypher get into and out of the matrix? But that doesn’t stop them from being great, because movies are more about characters and themes than they are about having a tight plot. Like sure it helps, but you don’t need your movie to be like 10% phone calls in order to show how everyone knows everything and close all of them. So like, whatever.

Second is Re: Bathos
So first this is brought up by Yanik and then Jeff got really angry about it, and while I HATE Bathos due to oversaturation, link to a video on it here (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w-QhdzQo66o). I feel it was used quite well because this movie is about moving on from the past and subverting the expectations of the previous star wars films (more on this on my why this was really good section). Like the specific examples James cites actually seem to come at the right spot. Luke tossing the lightsaber, that’s basically to show, yeah, Luke isn’t just going to help us and be the same Luke from the trilogy, subverting expectations. Yoda laughing while the tree burns, like did you miss the speech he made, he finds it funny that Luke thinks they are necessary at all. The jakku joke came at little dramatic cost and the shoulder dust off was used to proper effect. Like the point of it was to show that Luke was so unphased he could make a joke about it, showing how much of a badass he was. Like the movie was pretty good at using humor at the right times and overall stuck to the serious tone it needed, when it was needed.

Third is Re: Kylo Ren
So, I don’t know why gold thinks that Kylo is a bad villain or a bad character. He’s by far the most interesting character in the new films and is very reminiscent of Prince Zuko from ATLA. Like gold says that he has no idea what his motivation is, but the entire point is that he’s a conflicted teen/young adult born as the son of legends.
Like here is Kylo’s character arc and motivation so far:
Born to legendary rebels Han Solo and Leia Organa and trained by Luke Skywalker. Obviously this is gonna put a lot of pressure on him to be a legend himself and fight for the light, but he gets corrupted by Snoke and also learns about the identity of his grandfather being one of the greatest Sith Lords of all time. So he begins trying to follow in his footsteps of his grandfather hunting the rebel scum and be a badass, but he’s bad at it and then some random girl manages to beat him in a fight when he’s been training in all his life..This leads to evil stepfather being even meaner to him and trying to control his actions more and Kylo doesn’t like being controlled. Then he starts getting psychic visions and connecting with the inner thoughts of other force user while she is finding his legend of an uncle. This endears her to him, feeling a deep connection to her. Then his evil step dad tells him he set it all up, that he has been controlling kylo the whole time (something it is clear he doesn’t like since the first film) and to kill the person he was just psychically connected to. All this time he is feeling a natural call to the light, perhaps because that is his actual nature since he was corrupted. Not really surprising he decides, fuck you, you can’t do what I tell you tell me to, I’m going to do what I think is right and rule the galaxy how I want.

That seems like a pretty good and deep character arc, we just need to see where it goes from here.
(Also him not shooting Leia is meant to show there is still some of the light in him, how could you miss that, hell he was barely able to kill Han)

That’s it for this part. I’ll type up my thoughts on flaws and what I liked later.

@Vashta

with the jokes, I would have liked one or two, but so many... and they were all slapstick humor. all VERY blunt. none of them had any kind of wit to them, and I think it was very off tone for Star Wars.

and as for transitions, I think you're wrong.

Luke's throwing the lightsaber over his shoulder is him admitting defeat, GLIBLY. this is the guy who wouldn't give up on Darth Vader, the guy who he saw in 4 murder Obiwan. him trying to kill Kylo after a few seconds of seeing the dark side in him... Luke NEVER thought people "were too far gone" before, so why now? because he's famous? what a generic excuse to tear down one of the best sci-fi-fi characters ever. and the is an overarching theme of the new movies: they've KILLED the old characters. Han they turned into some bad run away dad, Leia has had near-zero progression of any kind, and Luke went egomaniacal, and then just gave up.

They BUTCHERED some of our favorite characters, and to make room for what? Fin Rey and Po? really? that's the star ensemble to replace them? Fin was hyped up to be a force user, but now he's been confirmed to just be "some janitor," Rey, because no we KNOW she has no special bloodline or anything is a PURE unadulterated, Mary Sue, (she knows more about the falcon than Han, can mind control people without even freaking being taught one lesson, beats Kylo when she's never held a lightsaber before, the super piloting of the falcon). and the ONLY theory that explained it was "she had her memory wiped, but was trained as a child. but now THAT'S gone. Meanwhile they're TRYING to make Po look stupid and rash, and although he is headstrong, they did a BAD job of it because fucking Purple-head was the number 1 idiot not simply telling the plan. and being afraid of a MOLE on the ship? they never HINTED at that even, I don't know where you're getting that... it's a cop-out 100% for bad writing.

But let's get back to the humor: Yoda laughing as the Jedi texts burned, saying they weren't important: um... but Rey STOLE them, check the last scene of the movie when Fin gets a blanket for Rose: the books are THERE! is Yoda pulling a prank on Luke, if so... what??? and the walker scene, the brushing off of the shoulders wasn't bad, but it's the CHAIN the constant breaks in seriousness that have caused this to be a problem.

and Kylo is a bad character. he's just whiny. he's a puppet, he's not mentally strong, he throws tantrums and he tries to lash out and kill people close to him. NOT interesting. stop pretending like this is some massively deep thing, it's NEW to Star Wars which is why it sticks out, but I hate when people point at some semi-emo character and say "wow that's so deep" shut up, it's not. and the thing is, he doesn't HAVE to be some deep multilayered character to be good, but they're always talking about him with his bloodline and the pressure on him... and it's all so fucking much. I thought we HATED that about the prequels? but now it's fun to talk about the bloodline trend? it's bad motivation, and it ALL stems from Snoke, who pops up FROM NOWHERE. He can't be a sith because it's always a master and apprentice, but this SUPER-MEGA-ASS-WHOOPING BAD GUY, gets close to Luke's remote, small temple which he oversees everything, and corrupts Kylo? yeah fucking right. don't even bother explaining to me how this shit happens, because it is in fact shit.

and the Jakku joke coming at little expense of seriousness? it's a main introduction sequence. it's a character building tool that used to be amazing.

when you meet characters, it's vital. and when CHARACTERS meet characters, that determines chemistry.

Luke meets Han, he's willing to help you, for a price. confident, arrogant, but good in a fight.

Luke meets Obiwan, somewhat mysterious past, very knowledgeable, but fatherly. he helps Luke, but has trouble with this brash character.

Leia meet Vader, force chokes a guy after his troops assault the ship. but not only that, he's politically well versed as he catches Leia in a lie about being a diplomatic transport, and we see Leia is willing to fight, but still is a "proper" citizen.


but Rey and Luke, it's all jokes.

1. throwing lightsaber over back.
- should be dramatic, Luke reconnecting with his roots, but no.

2. drinking weird milk thing
- weird, nasty, unnecessary cringe.

3. Chewie smashing down door
- probably the only decent piece of humor getting him involved, but these are two characters that already have history

4. "I've seen your schedule you're not busy"
- she knows Luke doesn't want to go for other reasons, but this is just more humor throw in.

5. hitting her on the hand with the leaf
- she's supposed to be learning about the force. this is the awe inspiring moment for a new generation... and a joke appears.

6. "Jakku really is nowhere"
- Luke is trying to figure out why she's there, trying to go to her core motivations, and... joke cuts that out.


I mean this is brining the generations of force users and for god's sake man are we just not supposed to take Star Wars seriously anymore? I hear people say "they're just movies, you're not supposed to take them seriously!" but if 4-6 didn't take themselves seriously, the franchise doesn't occur. if 4 didn't take itself seriously the franchise doesn't occur.

and yes I know, there were many problems and Hamill and Ford have been criticized for phoning it in a bit: but the intent behind the dialogue, the way the character arcs are molded, it's a series that has never gone down the route of such direct in your face comedy.

as for this being a stylistic change, I think it's for the worst. It ruins the rewatchability of the film, which has already been proven by it being the WORST of the Star Wars franchise in terms of holding on to it's initial viewing audience (it only held on to like 27% in theaters, even Rogue One beat it)

sorry for the ranting, but there are fairly serious problems with this movie, and that's only ONE element of them

Longer response on the rest later, but isn't the holding onto the audience affected by the fact that Christmas eve fell on Sunday this year?

Okay so flaws and what I liked.

The only main flaw that I see left is that there was an entire subplot, like a third of the film, that was completely unnecessary. Like, did we need to go to the Casino and do fuck all, and then have the heist plot fall flat for...a fight scene against a Yazma, a villain we don’t even care about. I guess the kid with the broom at the end was kind of cool though.

Also like it can be fixed really easily, since obviously this is partly to just, give Finn something to do and try and introduce a new character who was...okay I guess (though honestly her trying to same Finn and the “love” moment was pure fucking cringe and the movie would be better without it). Just have the captain approve the new plan, but when it doesn’t work, have her do the shuttle thing, showing she was prepared and adaptable, instead us having to think about “but why?”.

Anyway, onto why I liked this film.

First, the action was fucking amazing. The first battle was amazingly tense after the stupid joke at the beginning, The Knights of Ren fight scene was fucking awesome and most of all the scene with the lightspeed crash was fantastic. There were other scenes as well but those take the cake.

Second, I loved the subversion. Star Wars has become a rehash of AT-ATs, Death Stars, and the same old same old. Force Awakens and Rogue One did little to nothing to add to or change the Star Wars universe and this was a travesty. But now we have a movie about forgetting the past and moving forward, and our characters are new, and the force can actually do more cool stuff we didn’t know about but makes sense (i.e force projection and the mind link which I don’t recall being used before, at least as a major element). Like, I like Luke being an old grizzled man who gave up on the Force. Sure he’s not the same person from the original trilogy, but that’s the point, people change, he just went from becoming a living legend ot dealing with the world after that and I buy that explanation as plausible. Also, Rian Johnson did the right thing with Rey’s parents and Snoke. (Apparently JaJabrams set those up without a known payoff, so it’s good that Rian decided to just close the door on it) Mark Hamill said “This won’t be going the way you expect” early on, and he was exactly right, and I enjoyed that.

Third is, I loved the performance and characters. Poe seemed a bit more like an idiot, but fit his characterization. Mark Hamill was fucking phenomenal in his portrayal of Luke, no issues at all. I liked Rey a lot more this time around, not sure why, maybe her having more resolve? Was nice to see her and Mark interact. Kylo Ren was amazing, especially in the “psychic connection scenes”, he’s progressing but he’s not yet in his final form. Finn and Rose were okay I guess, but that’s all I can say about them.

Anyway, loved the film, probably the best of the new films, and I am very happy I saw it.

"The Knights of Ren fight scene"

They were never mentioned. That wasn't them in the throne room. Another setup from TFA ignored

I'm sorry Vash, I don't see it with Kylo. Easily the worst Star Wars villain. Gimme back Count Dooku. He has none of the depth that you speak of. He's conflicted, but it just comes across as angsty. He has a supposed character growth scene by not killing Leia, but immediately regresses. He's willing to let her die after he kills Snoke, ffs. Where's the character growth there?

I mean, even Fin, whose part in the movie was a butchered travesty, showed more character growth than Kylo Ren.

It's even more a shame because I like Rey. Her character is growing nicely and I like the touch about her parents being nobodies.

That’s because he was conflicted even further after the death of his father. Snoke connecting Rey and Kylo and having them communicate and then demanding he kill her moved him to resolve those conflicts. He’s not internally conflicted at the end of the film because he is now DETERMINED to finish off the Past (read: the Republic).

Character growth doesn’t necessarily make them a better person. Kylo grew, but resolved to dig his claws into villainy.

Yeah the set ups were ignored because jajabrams didn't have a plan in store for them. So why pay off something you don't know where it's going?

But I thought the Republic was already dead in the previous movie? And he still seems really internally conflicted at the end. That's not the calm determination of Anakin marching into the Jedi Temple to kill the younglings. That's the childlike behavior of someone who hasn't yet matured and is capable of rational thought. This franchise has already shown character growth into a worse person, and has done a better job of it.

Why pay off something you don't know where it's going? Because it was alluded to in the previous film, and these films are meant to be viewed sequentially. You don't start on one track in a trilogy to completely change tracks in the next movie. Name one trilogy that has this much conflict between it's first two movies.

The blasting Luke thing was just as clouded by hate as Anakin trying to jump over Obi-Wan on Mustafar.

And killing the Republic is kind of the point of finishing off the Resistance.

yeah but did they like destroy coruscant? what major planets were those? they give ZEEEEROOOO shits about the extended universe

Yes, but one was the result of an evil Sith Lord purposely clouding the mind of a Jedi. The other was...angsty teen being angsty. There was no setup for him to hate Snoke. There was no reason for him to hate Luke at this level. There's NONE of the build up that the OT gave to Vader betraying the Emperor or Anakin betraying the Jedi in the prequels. Of the three betrayals, this is by far the least believable. The other two were strongly anchored in plot. This one seems like it happened just so it could be a "gotcha" moment.

And as I said, the republic was already destroyed in the first film. The past is already dead. WHY DOES HE WANT TO KILL HIS MOM NOW BUT NOT AN HOUR EARLIER IN THE MOVIE.

His mother was important to him as a person an hour earlier, but when he resolved to kill her she stood as a symbol of the Past he felt the need to eradicate.

When did this resolution happen? What drove it? I mean, come on TrPrado, this shit is weak. He is a weak character with no depth to him. All of his actions have been to drive the plot, not be driven by it. He's not believable.

@TrPrado

but he was deceived by Snoke... which made him all the more resolved to kill his mom?

Goldie, what part of letting go of the past do you not understand?

One doesn't just turn on their parents like that. Not after all the anguish he had gone through in killing his father and deciding not to kill his mother. There has to be some sort of catalyst done by them. Anakin doesn't decide to kill obiwan because he turned on the Jedi, he does it because of a perceived personal attack. One doesn't simply resolve to kill their loved ones without reason.

Vash, besides that whole thing being stupid, I don't buy it. The whole movie put forward this "it's a cycle" theory, and then to "let go of the past" Kylo does....exactly what every Sith does during the past

And Vash, you didn't respond to my points about dropping all the setup work JJ did. What trilogy uses it's second movie to so unabashedly reject the first?

It happened when Snoke literally said he felt Kylo Ren resolving his internal conflict. It was an actual line of dialogue.

“but he was deceived by Snoke... which made him all the more resolved to kill his mom?”

His mom AND Snoke. His connection to Rey, who is young, and conversations up to that point and ultimately feeling an old person nagging him to do something made him feel he could cut it for himself. He was willing to kill the Past (his mom and Snoke) but not the Present (Rey).