OK, lemme throw this back atcha one more time.

"I agree that genocide is one of the hardest things to face when reading the Quran. But it's better than eternal separation from Allah."

Now, Mutejust, please read that and tell me you didn't shit yourself just a little bit. That is EXACTLY how we feel when you talk like a crazy person and justify weird shit in Gods name.

That's an interesting claim, YJ. Your claim, then, is that experiencing genocide is the single worst possible experience one can have?

I'm not saying it's right or wrong. Just making sure I understand.

Well Mujus, two caveats with what you said. First, prophecy, if vague enough, can never be proved false, only certain interpretations of it. For example, the Sanhedrin in 1st century Israel believed the messiah would come as a Davidic warrior (which some sects of Judaism still believe today). According to them, the prophecies still have not come to pass; according the Christianity, the prophecies have not only been fulfilled, they have proved the Davidic warrior interpretation false (except in a spiritual sense).

Second, there is no historical record outside of the bible for the Egyptian captivity of the Hebrews, nor any geological record for the flood (an historical event, right? Never mind that the titanic was larger than the ark by the most liberal estimates of a cubit's length and could not have fit all the various animals alive today, never mind those that have gone extinct in just the last 6000 years), nor any evidence of the plagues on Egypt. I could go on, but only one is sufficient. I presented three.

Don't split hairs, Semck.

The idea that "separation from God" is anywhere near on the order of terribleness of GENOCIDE is abhorrent.

What I basically heard Mutejus say just now is that if he had to pick one, he's gonna go with the Genocide. Seems I've heard sentiments like that before, now where was that?

The problem with a broad claim like that ("genocide is better than eternal separation from god") is that, as a Christian, one has to believe that there's always a chance. Deathbed converts are well enough documented and celebrated in most American denominations. Genocide precludes that possibility, cutting short the line fate had weaves for those individuals. The claim is essentially saying "we know that, from now until these people die natural deaths, they will reject salvation and actively speak and work against the message. Therefore, better they should die than be allowed to lead others astray." That is unacceptable. If I have mischaracterized the position, please clarify your broad generalization.

YJ, I assume Mujus was talking about experiential terribleness. If he was, I would assume that anything eternal and bad would be worse than anything temporary and bad. You may, of course, disagree, but it doen't seem like a crazy thing to believe. Of course, once you figure out what a Christian means by separation from God, then it turns out the eternal thing is extremely bad, as well, but that's another issue.

No no, I get it, I mean, I always thought I understood your deal, in the abstract.

But hearing it put down in black and white like this, that a real life atrocity is actually an acceptable result compared to the damnation caused by not believing your fucking FAIRY TALE...

The consequences of the insight you've given me into the mind of the faithful are deeply horrible and terrifying. This all of a sudden has become a real eye opening conversation, and I can say that I am truly scared of what you all represent.

I better leave it at that. I'm not having fun with this anymore.

You must already have been horrified, I suppose, when you heard of people being martyred for their faith -- since that is exactly the choice they make.

Perhaps you thought Christians only pretended to believe.

I guess maybe on some level I did. I wish I could go back.

You're all insane.

Yellow and Dyslexic, when I made the point that you can prove that the Bible prophecies came true, you rebutted with an analogy, moral outrage, name-calling, and an appeal to the genocide question. I'll deal with your analogy and then move on from this conversation. My challenge was that only a fool would go around talking about the Bible as either good or bad, true or false, when he hasn't actually read and analyzed it. You then said that was also the case for me and other religions and their sacred books as well--but Yellow, there's a difference: I'm not running around putting other religions down, while you're using emotionally loaded language, denigration, name-calling, and any argument you can scrounge up, to put down Christianity and the Bible--so I'm repeating my point that yes, you're a fool to make those assertions if you don't know the facts of what you're talking about. And YJ, if it's true, it's the hugest thing that could possibly ever happen in anybody's life, so yes, it's worth investigating, even if you think the chance of it all being true is a tiny fraction of 1%. And just think how powerful your arguments will be when you argue with Christians, when you know all the facts and can prove the Bible wrong. Yah.

Don't worry, Jesus still loves you guys even though you're ruining His thread.

No, you are mad and you all must be stopped. it's so clear now. Thanks for showing me.

Dubm, the point is not that we know--It's that God knows. He knows in advance who will choose him and all he offers, and who will not, and your "fate line" is nothing other than the future that God knows you will choose.

The Bible reading for October 18 is Genesis 36.
New Living Translation (NLT)
Descendants of Esau

36:1 This is the account of the descendants of Esau (also known as Edom). 2 Esau married two young women from Canaan: Adah, the daughter of Elon the Hittite; and Oholibamah, the daughter of Anah and granddaughter of Zibeon the Hivite. 3 He also married his cousin Basemath, who was the daughter of Ishmael and the sister of Nebaioth. 4 Adah gave birth to a son named Eliphaz for Esau. Basemath gave birth to a son named Reuel. 5 Oholibamah gave birth to sons named Jeush, Jalam, and Korah. All these sons were born to Esau in the land of Canaan.

6 Esau took his wives, his children, and his entire household, along with his livestock and cattle—all the wealth he had acquired in the land of Canaan—and moved away from his brother, Jacob. 7 There was not enough land to support them both because of all the livestock and possessions they had acquired. 8 So Esau (also known as Edom) settled in the hill country of Seir.

9 This is the account of Esau’s descendants, the Edomites, who lived in the hill country of Seir.

10 These are the names of Esau’s sons: Eliphaz, the son of Esau’s wife Adah; and Reuel, the son of Esau’s wife Basemath.

11 The descendants of Eliphaz were Teman, Omar, Zepho, Gatam, and Kenaz. 12 Timna, the concubine of Esau’s son Eliphaz, gave birth to a son named Amalek. These are the descendants of Esau’s wife Adah.

13 The descendants of Reuel were Nahath, Zerah, Shammah, and Mizzah. These are the descendants of Esau’s wife Basemath.

14 Esau also had sons through Oholibamah, the daughter of Anah and granddaughter of Zibeon. Their names were Jeush, Jalam, and Korah.

15 These are the descendants of Esau who became the leaders of various clans:

The descendants of Esau’s oldest son, Eliphaz, became the leaders of the clans of Teman, Omar, Zepho, Kenaz, 16 Korah, Gatam, and Amalek. These are the clan leaders in the land of Edom who descended from Eliphaz. All these were descendants of Esau’s wife Adah.

17 The descendants of Esau’s son Reuel became the leaders of the clans of Nahath, Zerah, Shammah, and Mizzah. These are the clan leaders in the land of Edom who descended from Reuel. All these were descendants of Esau’s wife Basemath.

18 The descendants of Esau and his wife Oholibamah became the leaders of the clans of Jeush, Jalam, and Korah. These are the clan leaders who descended from Esau’s wife Oholibamah, the daughter of Anah.

19 These are the clans descended from Esau (also known as Edom), identified by their clan leaders.

Original Peoples of Edom

20 These are the names of the tribes that descended from Seir the Horite. They lived in the land of Edom: Lotan, Shobal, Zibeon, Anah, 21 Dishon, Ezer, and Dishan. These were the Horite clan leaders, the descendants of Seir, who lived in the land of Edom.

22 The descendants of Lotan were Hori and Hemam. Lotan’s sister was named Timna.

23 The descendants of Shobal were Alvan, Manahath, Ebal, Shepho, and Onam.

24 The descendants of Zibeon were Aiah and Anah. (This is the Anah who discovered the hot springs in the wilderness while he was grazing his father’s donkeys.)

25 The descendants of Anah were his son, Dishon, and his daughter, Oholibamah.

26 The descendants of Dishon[a] were Hemdan, Eshban, Ithran, and Keran.

27 The descendants of Ezer were Bilhan, Zaavan, and Akan.

28 The descendants of Dishan were Uz and Aran.

29 So these were the leaders of the Horite clans: Lotan, Shobal, Zibeon, Anah, 30 Dishon, Ezer, and Dishan. The Horite clans are named after their clan leaders, who lived in the land of Seir.

Rulers of Edom

31 These are the kings who ruled in the land of Edom before any king ruled over the Israelites[b]:

32 Bela son of Beor, who ruled in Edom from his city of Dinhabah.

33 When Bela died, Jobab son of Zerah from Bozrah became king in his place.

34 When Jobab died, Husham from the land of the Temanites became king in his place.

35 When Husham died, Hadad son of Bedad became king in his place and ruled from the city of Avith. He was the one who defeated the Midianites in the land of Moab.

36 When Hadad died, Samlah from the city of Masrekah became king in his place.

37 When Samlah died, Shaul from the city of Rehoboth-on-the-River became king in his place.

38 When Shaul died, Baal-hanan son of Acbor became king in his place.

39 When Baal-hanan son of Acbor died, Hadad[c] became king in his place and ruled from the city of Pau. His wife was Mehetabel, the daughter of Matred and granddaughter of Me-zahab.

40 These are the names of the leaders of the clans descended from Esau, who lived in the places named for them: Timna, Alvah, Jetheth, 41 Oholibamah, Elah, Pinon, 42 Kenaz, Teman, Mibzar, 43 Magdiel, and Iram. These are the leaders of the clans of Edom, listed according to their settlements in the land they occupied. They all descended from Esau, the ancestor of the Edomites.

Footnotes:a.Genesis 36:26 Hebrew Dishan, a variant spelling of Dishon; compare 36:21, 28.
b.Genesis 36:31 Or before an Israelite king ruled over them.
c.Genesis 36:39 As in some Hebrew manuscripts, Samaritan Pentateuch, and Syriac version (see also 1 Chr 1:50); most Hebrew manuscripts read Hadar.
http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=genesis%2036&version=NLT

As best I can tell, your answer to my post about proving the bible wrong is, "but what if Christianity is right? Doesn't it deserve some serious consideration, because it might be right?" I'll ignore the fact that Christianity has evolved nigh continuously since JC was offered up because there are literally hundreds of brands of Christianity to choose from, even a few that deny the divinity of Christ but not his saving power. I'll instead turn your argument around:

What makes Christianity uniquely special that it deserves more consideration than any other religion in the world (ignoring the various sects of each one)?

Is Ezekiel 23:20 true, as well? That's my favorite verse.

"She lusted after her lovers, whose genitals were like those of donkeys and whose semen was like that of horses."

Dell, good question! What makes Christianity special is that our God is the real God, the creator of everything. Also, Christians don't try to get to heaven by good works or by being good people, so that separates it from every other religion I have ever heard of (and the concept of 'heaven' varies, including nirvana-- a cosmic nothingness of no sensory input and total peace-- but it's still a place you'd want to go to). For us, it's a total free gift, bought and paid for at a huge price and given to us for free. That, and it's provable, if you just seek God.

Metvaya, that's a juvenile response to a serious topic. But for the readers who might wonder, the two prostitute sisters listed in Ezekiel are very specifically stated to represent the cities of Samaria and Jerusalem: Ezekiel 23:1 "This message came to me from the Lord: 2 “Son of man, once there were two sisters who were daughters of the same mother. 3 They became prostitutes in Egypt. Even as young girls, they allowed men to fondle their breasts. 4 The older girl was named Oholah, and her sister was Oholibah. I married them, and they bore me sons and daughters. I am speaking of Samaria and Jerusalem, for Oholah is Samaria and Oholibah is Jerusalem." The chapter accuses them of idol worship and child sacrifice, by burning. The two gods of the region were Dagon and Asherah, and they made statues of Dagon with hands sticking out in front, palms up, on which they would lay babies. Then they would light the fire underneath. God is comparing them here to unfaithful wives who prostitute themselves with other men, but it's really unfaithful cities who are prostituting themselves with other Gods.

Ah, so let me get this straight:

Fact: there are hundreds of religions in the world
Assumption: only one is correct
Question: which one is the correct religion?
Assumption: Christianity is the only correct religion
Logical step: since we assumed that Christianity is correct, quid pro quo, Christianity is the only correct religion.

That's what you just said, right? You do realize every other faith says their religion is provable if you just believe, right? This thread is going back on mute. If you want to have a reasonable discussion, PM me and I will come back. Until then, enjoy your copying and pasting.

Yes, Dub. That's the message of the whole Bible: The name of God, Yahweh (approximate transliteration) is a form of the verb "to be", translated "I AM", he's called the Living God, as opposed to the dead silver and gold idols of the nations, he's the one who in Exodus says he hears the cries of his people and comes down to save them. "Hear o Israel: The Lord, our God, the Lord is one God." He that comes to God must believe that he exists and that he rewards those who seek him. Come to me all you who labor and are loaded down with heavy burdens, and I will give you rest for your souls. Jesus said, "You believe in God; believe also in me." He's the real God, the one who is, the creator of all life and the author of the instructions manual for your life. Jesus says, "I am the way, the truth, and the life; no one comes to the Father except through me." He is not willing that anyone should die, but that all should come to repentance. Yeah! Our imperfect lives get a lot better when we have a connection to the Perfect God.

If you want that, just find a quiet place and ask him if he exists, and tell him that if he does, that you want to know him in your life. Then watch for him to act in your life. Talk to him every day, and determine to do what he tells you, as best you can.

Remember when Mutejus said he'd drop nerve gas on a village full of little brown orphans if it would get him closer to God?

In response to YJ's comment--No, I never said that. I'm going to try to ignore further similar communications, but don't take it personally. God still loves you and sent his son to die for you.

The Bible reading for 10-19-2012 is Genesis 37.
New Living Translation (NLT)
Joseph’s Dreams

37:1 So Jacob settled again in the land of Canaan, where his father had lived as a foreigner.

2 This is the account of Jacob and his family. When Joseph was seventeen years old, he often tended his father’s flocks. He worked for his half brothers, the sons of his father’s wives Bilhah and Zilpah. But Joseph reported to his father some of the bad things his brothers were doing.

3 Jacob[a] loved Joseph more than any of his other children because Joseph had been born to him in his old age. So one day Jacob had a special gift made for Joseph—a beautiful robe.[b] 4 But his brothers hated Joseph because their father loved him more than the rest of them. They couldn’t say a kind word to him.

5 One night Joseph had a dream, and when he told his brothers about it, they hated him more than ever. 6 “Listen to this dream,” he said. 7 “We were out in the field, tying up bundles of grain. Suddenly my bundle stood up, and your bundles all gathered around and bowed low before mine!”

8 His brothers responded, “So you think you will be our king, do you? Do you actually think you will reign over us?” And they hated him all the more because of his dreams and the way he talked about them.

9 Soon Joseph had another dream, and again he told his brothers about it. “Listen, I have had another dream,” he said. “The sun, moon, and eleven stars bowed low before me!”

10 This time he told the dream to his father as well as to his brothers, but his father scolded him. “What kind of dream is that?” he asked. “Will your mother and I and your brothers actually come and bow to the ground before you?” 11 But while his brothers were jealous of Joseph, his father wondered what the dreams meant.

12 Soon after this, Joseph’s brothers went to pasture their father’s flocks at Shechem. 13 When they had been gone for some time, Jacob said to Joseph, “Your brothers are pasturing the sheep at Shechem. Get ready, and I will send you to them.”

“I’m ready to go,” Joseph replied.

14 “Go and see how your brothers and the flocks are getting along,” Jacob said. “Then come back and bring me a report.” So Jacob sent him on his way, and Joseph traveled to Shechem from their home in the valley of Hebron.

15 When he arrived there, a man from the area noticed him wandering around the countryside. “What are you looking for?” he asked.

16 “I’m looking for my brothers,” Joseph replied. “Do you know where they are pasturing their sheep?”

17 “Yes,” the man told him. “They have moved on from here, but I heard them say, ‘Let’s go on to Dothan.’” So Joseph followed his brothers to Dothan and found them there.

Joseph Sold into Slavery

18 When Joseph’s brothers saw him coming, they recognized him in the distance. As he approached, they made plans to kill him. 19 “Here comes the dreamer!” they said. 20 “Come on, let’s kill him and throw him into one of these cisterns. We can tell our father, ‘A wild animal has eaten him.’ Then we’ll see what becomes of his dreams!”

21 But when Reuben heard of their scheme, he came to Joseph’s rescue. “Let’s not kill him,” he said. 22 “Why should we shed any blood? Let’s just throw him into this empty cistern here in the wilderness. Then he’ll die without our laying a hand on him.” Reuben was secretly planning to rescue Joseph and return him to his father.

23 So when Joseph arrived, his brothers ripped off the beautiful robe he was wearing. 24 Then they grabbed him and threw him into the cistern. Now the cistern was empty; there was no water in it. 25 Then, just as they were sitting down to eat, they looked up and saw a caravan of camels in the distance coming toward them. It was a group of Ishmaelite traders taking a load of gum, balm, and aromatic resin from Gilead down to Egypt.

26 Judah said to his brothers, “What will we gain by killing our brother? We’d have to cover up the crime.[c] 27 Instead of hurting him, let’s sell him to those Ishmaelite traders. After all, he is our brother—our own flesh and blood!” And his brothers agreed. 28 So when the Ishmaelites, who were Midianite traders, came by, Joseph’s brothers pulled him out of the cistern and sold him to them for twenty pieces[d] of silver. And the traders took him to Egypt.

29 Some time later, Reuben returned to get Joseph out of the cistern. When he discovered that Joseph was missing, he tore his clothes in grief. 30 Then he went back to his brothers and lamented, “The boy is gone! What will I do now?”

31 Then the brothers killed a young goat and dipped Joseph’s robe in its blood. 32 They sent the beautiful robe to their father with this message: “Look at what we found. Doesn’t this robe belong to your son?”

33 Their father recognized it immediately. “Yes,” he said, “it is my son’s robe. A wild animal must have eaten him. Joseph has clearly been torn to pieces!” 34 Then Jacob tore his clothes and dressed himself in burlap. He mourned deeply for his son for a long time. 35 His family all tried to comfort him, but he refused to be comforted. “I will go to my grave[e] mourning for my son,” he would say, and then he would weep.

36 Meanwhile, the Midianite traders[f] arrived in Egypt, where they sold Joseph to Potiphar, an officer of Pharaoh, the king of Egypt. Potiphar was captain of the palace guard.

Footnotes:
Genesis 37:3 Hebrew Israel; also in 37:13. See note on 35:21.
Genesis 37:3 Traditionally rendered a coat of many colors. The exact meaning of the Hebrew is uncertain.
Genesis 37:26 Hebrew cover his blood.
Genesis 37:28 Hebrew 20 shekels, about 8 ounces or 228 grams in weight.
Genesis 37:35 Hebrew go down to Sheol.
Genesis 37:36 Hebrew the Medanites. The relationship between the Midianites and Medanites is unclear; compare 37:28. See also 25:2.
http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=genesis%2037&version=NLT

Dub, yes, the only way to God is by trusting in Jesus, the Messiah. But no, it's not based on unwarranted assumptions--my faith is based on my own analyses and experiences, but mostly on asking God about himself.

Hey Mutejus, so if your experience with God is mostly based on personal communications, i.e. mostly devoid of worldly influence, then why do a million men born in a million boxes never seem to come up with the same God you do? Seems to me they have ample opportunity to ask God about himself. Why does God tell them different things (or none at all?). Why does God NEVER mention Jesus to these men?

I mean, Jesus is pretty important, right - in fact you'd probably agree he's what sets Christianity apart from the other biggies. You'd think Jesus would probably come up in conversation.... I'm just saying....

Hey Mutejus where did I take a wrong step? You said, "I agree that genocide is one of the hardest things to face when reading the Bible. But it's better than eternal separation from God."

Am I wrong, then in my understanding that if you had to euthanize a village full of heathens to get into heaven, that you would do so? Lets say the heathens had a really screwed up worldview and REALLY strong religious feelings, and they were making it impossible, through intimidation and tradition, for neighboring heathens to listen to the good news. So really, by euthanizing the village you are SAVING SOULS. You're giving people in nearby villages a chance to find Jesus, a chance that they can't find the courage to find without your help.

What do you do, Mutejus? Surely a few hundred dead folks is worth a few thousand eternal souls, right?

Seems to me you're risking your *own* soul if you don't do what needs to be done.

YJ, it's the opposite. A Christian should give up his own life to save the life of someone who doesn't believe--as Jesus did when he died for all sinners. The Christian life is illustrated by a movie--someone help me out with the title--about a group of missionaries that are killed by natives, and then their families go back to that group to teach them about Jesus and show them forgiveness. A true story! Another interesting story is a book called Peace Child--someone help me with the author?--in which the gospel is translated into another worldview. Let me try to answer a similar question--Could a Christian execute somebody on death row if he worked for the government? Sure, but that's not murder, because it's the law. And finally a story in illustration--a good friend of mine's nephew, who's almost as old as my friend, is a Sheriff Department detective in this area. Early in his career, as a young man, he was chasing a guy who had broken into a store, and was yelling at him to put down the gun. The suspect stopped and aimed the gun at my friend's nephew and the others who were chasing him, so he shot the suspect before he could kill someone, according to his training. As he was waiting for the ambulance, he was holding this guy's head and praying, and telling him over and over, "Don't die; don't die!" ... because he was afraid that guy didn't know Jesus. I really don't know if I've answered your specific question, but at least there's some food for thought.