"You're trying to appeal to strong bonds when you admitted to lying to everyone about a final 3 alliance and the such? That's bold Balkins :p"

Exactly. I believe this jury will respect honesty. I'm not going to stand up here and say I was true of heart and compliment everyone. I outwitted, outplayed, and outlasted. I didn't ignore the interpersonal aspect of the game. I played it hard. I didn't stab everyone. But I made the stabs I needed to ensure my path to the final three.

The jury respects honesty but also votes for you because you lied the entire game? How does that make sense?

"The jury respects honesty but also votes for you because you lied the entire game? How does that make sense?"

Because the game itself is not a truth-telling competition. Every player lied. And the folks who made the final jury lied a lot. Now we are before the final jury, explaining why we believe we played the best game. I don't believe the winner should be the person who disowns their game, and their reasons, like Flum has done repeatedly about Snowy.

I own my game. I will tell you everything about it. I will answer questions about why I did what I did. I spent quite a lot of time navigating my path to the final 3. It wasn't easy. I had a large target on my back, and I had to work very hard to shift targets onto others.

It is not a contradiction to say "I lied during the game, I am happy to explain the reasons why, and I believe I played the best game and deserve your vote." And it is not a contradiction to say: "Yes, I stabbed you, I think it was a smart and well-timed move, and I believe I deserve your vote for it."

And now I'm really going to bed. I'll leave you with this:

Tribal Immunities Won
Balki 2, Demon 0, Flum 0

Individual Immunities Won
Balki 2, Flum 1, Demon 0

Hidden Immunities Found:
Balki 2, Flum 0, Demon 0

Hidden Immunities Taken Home as Souvenirs Because He Didn't Have to Play Them
Balki 3, Flum 0, Demon 0

Alliances Formed
Balki a gazillion, Flum 0? (Ezio formed the one at Jug with Snowy and Glen, Balki formed the one at Birsan), Demon 0? (I don't know, you tell me)

I took the game into my own hands. That is why there is blood on them.

When we joined the final tribe, this is how conspicuous I was:

"Penalty Point Distribution

Balki Bartokomous gets 0 PP"
...
Balki Bartokomous wins individual immunity and is safe at the next Tribal Council!

You shall now be known as #fuckghug Tribe. QT and gameboard links will be going out shortly."

"1. Who do you most want to be sitting next to at Final Tribal Council?
The two (tied) correct answers were Snowy801 & DemonOverlord."

"3. Who do you think would most likely win this game if they got to Final Tribal?
The three tied correct answers were DemonOverlord, Balk Bartokomous and Ghug."

"5. Which player would you trust with your life?
The correct answer was Balki Bartokomous."

"8. Who do you most want to be on the Jury?
The correct answer was Balki Bartokomous."

I read those answers and I knew I, uniquely, had my work cut out for me. People wanted me on the jury most because they believed I would win if I made it to final tribal. I was also considered most trustworthy and received 0 penalty points out of the 46 in play. Snowy mentioned this repeatedly in our personal communications. My target was huge.

I had the hardest road to get here, and I navigated that road while basically avoiding any threat to get me out, by actively sharing information, juggling alliances with everyone, building up other rivalries and targets, and directing my own fate.

That was hard. That's why I should win.

^it's shit like this ghug means when he says you are blatantly and openly manipulative, Balki.

You didn't "win" tribal immunity or individual immunity at exile. There were three options allocated to us three players, and they got allocated. We all made a strategic decision about what we wanted, and probably all three of us thought we got the best of the deal. For example, I didn't want immunity going to my new tribe, because I wanted to actually cast a meaningful vote. This worked out for me, judging by how snowy trusted me enough to give me his idol the next round to save me. All you did was go to exile, which was only possibly a good thing.

You didn't take the hidden immunities home as souvenirs, you played them in order to win individual immunity.

No one cares who "formed" alliances. And it's obvious that Flum and demon formed alliances did you even read their posts?

@uclabb,

Here is your post on this topic from the Exile QT: "Similarly, I'd be willing to give Ezio first pick of hidden immunity idol and sealed container if Balki takes tribal immunity."

The challenge of Exile was to win tribal immunity for your tribe, you had to convince someone else to take that option. It was a tricky challenge. I convinced Ezio to bring tribal immunity back to Entente by convincing him that we were a tight group of 5 that wanted to have Ezio and his closest allies as a part of a cross-tribe alliance. It worked.

You did not convince me to bring tribal immunity back to your tribe, despite your many attempts to do so.

@uclabb, you are one of 3 people who have soloed against me at Diplomacy. When you did that, I said "nice game, well done." I recognize good play, even if it is at my expense.

And beyond convincing Ezio to take tribal immunity to my tribe, my work at Exile set me up to have a majority alliance at Birsan, even though only 2 of my Entente tribe members were assigned there. Ultimately, this is why you went home uclabb. Because I set myself up to succeed at Birsan, no matter who was assigned there, and it turned out that there was a majority of Mafia VIII folks there, rather than Enchiladas folks there.

This is what I mean when I say backup plans for my backups plans for my backup plans.

@Balki- I absolutely did not want you to take tribal immunity. I was only trying to angle to get individual immunity. Whether or not that was ideal strategy, we can argue about that. I'm not saying that you didn't have a successful exile trip. What I was saying was that post was just another of you just kind of openly lying, overcounting, spinning, and manipulating (while at the same time trying to claim that you are the person who is being most honest with the jury!). Note that you didn't even reply to the other parts of my post.

And the difference between this and the peanut gallery game is that I won that game. I can assure you that if you win this game, I will say "nice game, well done." The game is not over yet.

What's the peanut gallery game.

It's a game. Uclabb won it. We all got to throw peanuts at them. Good fun. We should do a third one soon.

Balki, do you think you could have won this game being more honest?

Okay, happy to respond to the other parts of your post. The first part was just so contradictory to what you said in the game, I got all hot and bothered and had to address that one first.

"You didn't take the hidden immunities home as souvenirs, you played them in order to win individual immunity."

Okay. I cracked both hidden immunity clues first. I acquired three idols. I never had to play one because my alliance-making and fucking hard work meant that I was never in danger. And I went into the final 5 with 3 idols, when everyone else had zero. If you think that's all worthless, ascribe no credit.

"No one cares who 'formed' alliances. And it's obvious that Flum and demon formed alliances did you even read their posts?"

My point here is that I controlled my destiny in a way that Demon and Fluminator did not. I was not the beneficiary of luck, which I think is an important concept. I was safe after the first merge because I made sure I would be, by setting up two potential cross-tribe alliances. And the two most successful alliances in the game, the ones that got all three of us to the final 3, were my alliance with Fluminator, and my alliance with Demon. Those were active strategic choices I made in order to survive to final jury despite the target on my back.

In contrast, Demon and Flum said "yes, good idea."

http://95.211.128.12/webdiplomacy/forum.php?threadID=1274990&page-thread=1#threadPager

ghug: "Balki, do you think you could have won this game being more honest?"

It's a good question. I really have no idea. I wasn't very honest during the game at all.

I thought about this a lot when the game began. I guess it's fair to say I reached the conclusion that honesty was not an important virtue in a Survivor winner and so I did not pursue it (nor did the other finalists). I think it was important to portray trustworthiness, and I did that, as the survey shows. But I did not shy away from deception, obviously.

I guess I think that if I were more honest, it is possible I would have made final jury, but I would have been much more dependent on good luck. If you are honest in this game, you can still wind up in the majority on a given tribe, but if a merge puts you in a bad spot, or someone on the minority plays a hidden immunity idol, you can be an easy victim of bad luck.

I eliminated that luck from the equation because I knew who was playing idols, and I set myself up to be safe no matter how merged tribes were assigned.

@Demon, I was talking about your post here when I said you were threatening to throw the final tiebreaker, “Btw, I'm not going to play a 1v1, I don't play those. So in the event of a tie involving me I'm going to withdraw from this game”
You didn’t try to cling to Balki or I. (It felt like you were clinging to ghug though :P ) But Balki and I could have voted you out at almost any time after the merge, where I don’t think you would have been able to take out either of us if you tried.

I need to respond to Balki’s claim that he manipulated me into taking out Ezio. The reason I stopped trusting Ezio was when he tried to target me at the end of the second tribe. Both snowy and Balki warned me so I had two separate sources. Furthermore, I had just witnessed Ezio instigate the betrayal of one of his other allies uclabb. (Both Ezio and snowy told me that Ezio targeted uclabb first). So for Balki to claim he manipulated me into thinking Ezio didn’t want me in the final 3, he has to first claim that he was the reason Ezio targeted me that round, because that was the reason I didn’t trust Ezio.

@Balki, When I agreed you may have had some influence in me voting out Ezio, that’s mainly because every player and ally influence the decisions I make. And you work the same way. You can claim to be some master manipulator, but I could easily turn it around and say I manipulated you into thinking I was your best bet at making it to the end, ensuring you stay loyal to me. And that's partly true actually, but it’s a bit more nuanced than that though.
I also don’t see any evidence of me disowning my game. Unless me admitting I wasn’t always in complete control at every vote is not owning it?
Also, I definitely controlled my destiny. That’s the reason I still mutinied even though I was in a perfectly safe position on the other tribe and already set to make the merge. I was active in ensuring I’d be in the best possible position come merge.

Ok, so you think honesty would be a hindrance.

Firstly, are you really classifying Demon's play as dishonest? Sure, anyone may have to lie occasionally, but she just self voted to avoid hurting her game long allies (one of whom was you, who whined at her incessantly not to vote for her), and she repeatedly made a point of avoiding lying.

Secondly, you say that an honest player could more easily be a victim of bad luck, and then described exactly a situation demon faced: finding herself in the minority post-merge. Why is it not more impressive that she found her way out of that while sticking to her convictions?

Flum: "When I agreed you may have had some influence in me voting out Ezio, that’s mainly because every player and ally influence the decisions I make. And you work the same way. You can claim to be some master manipulator, but I could easily turn it around and say I manipulated you into thinking I was your best bet at making it to the end, ensuring you stay loyal to me. And that's partly true actually, but it’s a bit more nuanced than that though."

Yeah, that's all true and valid. It's all more nuanced and hard to unpack when working as a covert team. I guess that's why I go back to: "who had the idea to work as a covert team?"

I have overstated my case when comparing myself to Flum. Once we were allies, there was more teamwork than individual agendas. We're both trying to take credit for stuff, which is fine, but it was more about teamwork. I respect Flum's game and he was a good teammate. I also think he was the fortunate beneficiary of a team design that I thought up and instigated.

I think the perception on why so many people at the time didn't think demon was that huge of a threat or playing that good a game (even though it was more honest), is because they viewed you as doing all the talking and surviving for both of them.

You and Vash were the only ones trying to convince me to vote Ezio the first round. Demon kind of dropped off talking to me that round.
I know you were the only one who was trying to convince me to take out Ezio next round. (I was actually the one who approached demon and told her I'd vote for Ezio if she gave me the white rock. She didn't approach me with that deal at all)

@ghug

"Ok, so you think honesty would be a hindrance.

Firstly, are you really classifying Demon's play as dishonest? Sure, anyone may have to lie occasionally, but she just self voted to avoid hurting her game long allies (one of whom was you, who whined at her incessantly not to vote for her), and she repeatedly made a point of avoiding lying.

Secondly, you say that an honest player could more easily be a victim of bad luck, and then described exactly a situation demon faced: finding herself in the minority post-merge. Why is it not more impressive that she found her way out of that while sticking to her convictions?"

The premise of your question is false. Demon did not play a game of honesty and honor. She played a duplicitous game like me. She lied to and stabbed Chaqa. She lied to and stabbed Moscow. Bo, Oztra, CommanderByron, where are you guys? Was Demon honest and true with you? If she wasn't, it's only because she did not have control.

So "sticking to her convictions" is your arbitrary gloss.

Is it admirable that Demon survived Sharp post-merge? Yes. If Demon had carefully thought-out reasons for leading various stabs and crafting the votes, I think we should hear from CommanderByron, Oztra, Moscow, Vashta, and Bo about it.

@ghug, you're blaming me for being deceptive, and treasuring Demon for being less involved and less active. It's okay, you want your friend Demon to win.

@Vashta,

I'd also really like to hear more from Vashta. Vashta was my closest ally before he mutinied and Fluminator arrived, and I had no intention of stabbing Vashta. I think that if anyone objective knows the effort that I put in, and the control I exerted, it's Vashta. He explained to me that one of the reasons he decided to mutiny was so that he would not be perceived to have ridden my coattails. I think he has a lot of information that is relevant to this discussion, and I wish he'd share his thoughts.

Do you think you manipulated me into voting out Vash too?

"Do you think you manipulated me into voting out Vash too?"

No. The Vashta vote surprised me.

Here is what my priority was on that vote, and how I accomplished it:

I had immunity, and wanted to remain everyone's ally in the game. I wanted to rekindle my alliance with Vashta, rekindle alliances with Demon and ghug, and keep Birsan believing that I would blindly follow Ezio's lead. It was a very difficult goal to get everyone to believe I was on their side, when we were all about to cast a vote in a tribe that was clearly divided into two groups.

So I leaked the Birsan plan to ghug, Demon, and Vashta. Vashta told me that his blue container contained a vote steal. So I explained that I would vote with Birsan, while Vashta stole a vote to vote out someone from Birsan, and I would join the remaining 3 from Sharp after that. That way, I would still be a source of information from Birsan.

At the same time, I didn't want fallout from Flum learning that I knew about this vote steal from Vashta, and I didn't want Flum to know how close I was with Vashta and how much I was playing both sides. So I told Flum that I heavily suspected that the blue container would be a vote steal (before that, Flum thought the blue container held the ability to read the other tribe's QT).

The result was that no matter what happened, I would still be in everyone's good graces. It was a lot of tap dancing.

Ultimately, Flum used the information I provided him to vote out Vashta. And I credit Fluminator with executing that move. I think this was the best move of Flum's game.

I'm proud of my move during that phase too. My move, after reading the survey results and understanding the target on my back, was to play both sides and make sure that I would remain everyone's ally after the vote, which I accomplished. I didn't want Vashta to go home, but I had built in backup plans, for my backup plans, for my backup plans.

Lmao

I still didn't think it was a vote steal until the vote actually happened. I didn't think Meme would put in such a broken item :P

"I still didn't think it was a vote steal until the vote actually happened. I didn't think Meme would put in such a broken item :P"

If you didn't think it was a vote steal (which I suggested to you), then your move didn't make sense, and was a happy accident. You tried to get ghug out during the entire existence of the #fuckghug tribe. If you thought ghug was going home, it did not make sense to cross your alliance and vote out Vashta.

And Flum I don't play 1v1 I'd lose the game versus any of you. The end result would be the same except I wouldn't have to suffer through a shit game

I'm not going to repeat myself because I already mentioned why I voted Vash, and I already had Vash question me quite a bit about it. You can read those if you want to know why. Ghug going home at that point was bad for my personal game.

(Although yes, when you showed hesitance at voting Vash, I had no issue letting you think I wanted ghug gone.)

Anyway, Balki's complete negativity, manipulation and lies during this question period has turned me off entirely from this. I self voted because I didn't want to betray you or ghug but here you are just guns out slandering everyone and everything, misleading and lying about events. It just makes me sad. It's a game and I don't see a reason to be so overly insane and go full blazing guns out. I'm actually really sad it turned into this even after I went out of my way to not stab you pointlessly. I get that you have a strong desire to win but I no longer think you deserve it in any way. Your approach to all of this is a real shame. And I'm not just saying this for the game or whatever shit, I truly believe this.