@Jere

You need not inform the alligator about the strength of his bite. He already knows.

Your point is?

@jeremiah i understand the principle. but i don't agree with collective punishment done by moses or done by the allies in germany. but the bible is full of collective punishment - racially or tribal based collective punishment. typically, though, based on race/descent. so... i think if god did do it, then he's a dick. or do you think that in all these massacres that every individual in X tribe was personally responsible for the actions of the tribal leader or whoever starts the conflict. (assuming the israelites themselves didn't start it, which it seems they sometimes did).

but it wasnt just the tribal leader, it was the whole people. everybody did it and everybody bieleved it beacause that was what was taught. it might have been the tribal leaders fault, but everything would spread again becuause all the girls who were not virgins bieleved that and the boys bieleved it also. so what happens then? they reproduce and we have the midianite tribe all over again and they suduce the istrailites to sin. The just part about collective punishment is that somtimes everybody bieleves it and everybody has done it so everybody should be punished. somtimes we are wrong. but in this case we wernt.

i don't even know why you're saying 'we'. but what does that even mean seduced the israelites to sin? even the most extreme propagandists aren't using that excuse in the media these days. "the blacks are seducing us whites to sin, time to kill them all off, including boys. but ok, lets keep the women. oh wait, only the virgins. we'll divide them up later". ... how many people was it? 100,000 or something? and they all "seduced the israelites to sin"? i don't know about it...

wait where are you getting that? blacks and whites??? i dont get that. they encouraged realationships and worshiped idol's and was an sinful influence to israel

Bad realtionships that God prohibited is what i ment to say

Jeremiah, about whether Job was a Christian--Well, he believes in Jesus now, doesn't he. :-)

yeah... so more like the hawaiians then when they had those pagan-style rituals as the colonial powers landed? i don't think the analogy is important. my point is that some 2 year old boy cannot be held responsible for some rituals that people of his ethnicity do. but it's not just the boy, i think there had to be probably most of the people there who were just going along because they had to. and i wouldn't have them killed either. but that's just me.

No he cannot be held responsable but he can restart the tribe by marrying the girls. If they restart the tribe they will eventually bielieve the same thing

I get your point Mujus....i dont know what else to call him though :-)

My point, Jeremiah, is that I don't need your input as to the worth of my comments. In fact, every bible thumper that openly dislikes them actually speaks in favor of my quality.

I am not telling u the worth of any of your horrid comments. I am in fact attempting to counter them. Witch of my comments are you pertaining to?

Alright, since my last post is being ignored my Mujus et al, I'm putting this back on mute. PM if you want me to rejoin the discussion.

lol Semck... looks like my side isn't the only one with some "undesired support" coming across :P

Sorry Dubmdell, that one slipped past me. Re proving the Bible wrong, that should be simple--Just prove one prophecy that didn't come true. None of this shallow stuff though, like an ignorant assertion that the prophecies were written after the fact (unless you have proof!), or only reading anti-Bible critics: Read the prophecies, compare them to history, and Shazaam, see if they came true or not. Daniel, Ezequiel, Jeremiah--and while you're at it, compare the history in Genesis-Exodus-etc. to what we know of the historical Middle East in secular sources. I think you'll be amazed.

The Bible reading for October 17 is Genesis 35.
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Genesis 35

New Living Translation (NLT)
Jacob’s Return to Bethel

35:1 Then God said to Jacob, “Get ready and move to Bethel and settle there. Build an altar there to the God who appeared to you when you fled from your brother, Esau.”

2 So Jacob told everyone in his household, “Get rid of all your pagan idols, purify yourselves, and put on clean clothing. 3 We are now going to Bethel, where I will build an altar to the God who answered my prayers when I was in distress. He has been with me wherever I have gone.”

4 So they gave Jacob all their pagan idols and earrings, and he buried them under the great tree near Shechem. 5 As they set out, a terror from God spread over the people in all the towns of that area, so no one attacked Jacob’s family.

6 Eventually, Jacob and his household arrived at Luz (also called Bethel) in Canaan. 7 Jacob built an altar there and named the place El-bethel (which means “God of Bethel”), because God had appeared to him there when he was fleeing from his brother, Esau.

8 Soon after this, Rebekah’s old nurse, Deborah, died. She was buried beneath the oak tree in the valley below Bethel. Ever since, the tree has been called Allon-bacuth (which means “oak of weeping”).

9 Now that Jacob had returned from Paddan-aram, God appeared to him again at Bethel. God blessed him, 10 saying, “Your name is Jacob, but you will not be called Jacob any longer. From now on your name will be Israel.”[a] So God renamed him Israel.

11 Then God said, “I am El-Shaddai—‘God Almighty.’ Be fruitful and multiply. You will become a great nation, even many nations. Kings will be among your descendants! 12 And I will give you the land I once gave to Abraham and Isaac. Yes, I will give it to you and your descendants after you.” 13 Then God went up from the place where he had spoken to Jacob.

14 Jacob set up a stone pillar to mark the place where God had spoken to him. Then he poured wine over it as an offering to God and anointed the pillar with olive oil. 15 And Jacob named the place Bethel (which means “house of God”), because God had spoken to him there.
The Deaths of Rachel and Isaac

16 Leaving Bethel, Jacob and his clan moved on toward Ephrath. But Rachel went into labor while they were still some distance away. Her labor pains were intense. 17 After a very hard delivery, the midwife finally exclaimed, “Don’t be afraid—you have another son!” 18 Rachel was about to die, but with her last breath she named the baby Ben-oni (which means “son of my sorrow”). The baby’s father, however, called him Benjamin (which means “son of my right hand”). 19 So Rachel died and was buried on the way to Ephrath (that is, Bethlehem). 20 Jacob set up a stone monument over Rachel’s grave, and it can be seen there to this day.

21 Then Jacob[b] traveled on and camped beyond Migdal-eder. 22 While he was living there, Reuben had intercourse with Bilhah, his father’s concubine, and Jacob soon heard about it.

These are the names of the twelve sons of Jacob:

23 The sons of Leah were Reuben (Jacob’s oldest son), Simeon, Levi, Judah, Issachar, and Zebulun.

24 The sons of Rachel were Joseph and Benjamin.

25 The sons of Bilhah, Rachel’s servant, were Dan and Naphtali.

26 The sons of Zilpah, Leah’s servant, were Gad and Asher.

These are the names of the sons who were born to Jacob at Paddan-aram.

27 So Jacob returned to his father, Isaac, in Mamre, which is near Kiriath-arba (now called Hebron), where Abraham and Isaac had both lived as foreigners. 28 Isaac lived for 180 years. 29 Then he breathed his last and died at a ripe old age, joining his ancestors in death. And his sons, Esau and Jacob, buried him.
Footnotes:

1. Genesis 35:10 Jacob sounds like the Hebrew words for “heel” and “deceiver.” Israel means “God fights.”
2. Genesis 35:21 Hebrew Israel; also in 35:22a. The names “Jacob” and “Israel” are often interchanged throughout the Old Testament, referring sometimes to the individual patriarch and sometimes to the nation.
http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=genesis%2035&version=NLT

rofl Mutejus... putting the burden of proof on the non-believer, really? That's not the way it works. Actually lets say that is the way it works.

It is now up to you to prove that every one of your competing religions is false.

Best get cracking.

By the way, Elvis is Jesus reborn, he isn't dead, him and Tupac are in cuba. They prophesied that 9/11 would happen. I know because I found some texts saying so. Don't believe me?

Burden of proof on you, bro.

Also the Flying Spaghetti Monster is the source from which all life flows. He has blessed us with his noodly appendage. Don't believe me?

Burden of proof on you, bro.

Also Mr. T and Chuck Norris had an epic clash in 6000 BC. The oceans were rent with Chuck Norris Roundhoused Mr. T in the face. The mountains were lifted when Mr T. headbutted Chuck Norris' balls. I found a picture online that proves it. Don't believe me?

Burden of proof on you, bro.

Also There was a great man who healed the sick, turned water into wine, and died for your sins. The Bible was written at the same time and it proves everything. Don't believe me?

Burden of proof on you, bro.

Ok YJ you want prove for the bible, how about the fact that it was written only a few years after Jesus died. How about the fact that every single prophecy in the bible has come true. How about that it is consistent and that every single one of the the books agree with each other and do not contradict each other in any way whatsoever yet they were all written by different people. Shall I go on? there are so many differant things that have happened in the course of history that proves the Bible true.

Yellow Jacket whats the point of all those posts up there? ^_^

They Cannot be proven false. The Bible on the other hand can be proven true.

Keep going Jeremiah, you're making a delightful mess for Semck to clean up when he gets back :P

http://whywontgodhealamputees.com/video1.htm

here's some awesome consistency for you. Can't wait to hear the excuses THIS time :P

Actually though, if you could tell me a few of the prophecies in the bible that came true (quote their passage for me) I'd love to see that. When I'm done checking it out I'll make some awesome prophecies for you, which, when they come true, apparently will prove I am God (who knew it was so easy?)

Reminds me of a conversation I had with King Atom, actually, about amputees (watch the video on why God won't heal them, its hilarious), it went a little something like this...

Me: So prayer is true, prayer cures cancer every day. You said so yourself. Prayer and God have healing powers. So why won't God heal the amputees? Does he have a special disliking for amputees?

KA: I knew an amputee who was healed by prayer.

Me: No. No you don't.

KA: Yes I do!

Me: You saw this with your own eyes?

KA: Well I mean I heard about it....

Me: *ROFL*

Jeremiah, you are so right about the Bible being different from those other books. YJ and Dumbdell, to be perfectly fair, there are some apparent contradictions in the Bible, minor ones, and after all it's a perfect God writing through imperfect people, but the main points are clear, and all of the historical prophecies have come to pass. Of course some of the prophecies have not yet come true.

Obi, I agree that genocide is one of the hardest things to face when reading the Bible. But it's better than eternal separation from God.