It is said to be the 3rd largest Lutheran denomination with around 390,000 members. I don't know and I don't care all that much. The second largest Lutheran group shares this view also though (LCMS).

http://www.iclnet.org/pub/resources/text/wittenberg/mosynod/web/endtme-3.html

"In both "body and soul" unbelievers will suffer eternal separation and condemnation in hell (Matt 18:8; 25:46; Mark 9:43; John 3:36; 2 Thess. 1:9; Jude 13; Rev. 14:11).[40] Indescribable torment will be experienced consciously, the degree determined by the nature of the sins to be punished (Matt. 11:20-24; 23:15; Luke 12:47-48).

According to the most recent Southern Baptist statement on hell (from 2000), they upheld the eternal punishment doctrine (under "Last Things").

http://www.sbc.net/bfm/bfmcomparison.asp

"I've bnever said I speak for all Christianity. Far from it. I speak for myself and myself alone. I can tell you the views of ELCA, of which I participate, but even my views vary from theirs on occasion."

Very well, but we were arguing about what the Christian doctrine as a whole was. You have personal beliefs quite different from that, fine, but I was making the point that Christianity taken collectively, with some exceptions, peddles fear of eternal torture in order to get people to believe.

Yes. 10,000+ ELCA. 6,000+ LCMS. 1200 WELS. this is congregations.

Now,m the Missouri Synod (LCMS) is a significant portion. They and the ELCA make up 17,000 congregations of the less than 20,000 Lutheran congregations in america, or about 85%. And yes, the LCMS is very conservative and differs from the ELCA in the following three core points.

LCMS: Believe that the Bible should not be subject to higher critical methods.

ELCA: Believe that the Bible can speak effectively through the use of higher critical study.

LCMS Believe that the Bible restricts women from certain church positions including ordained ministry.

ELCA Believes the Bible permits, even encourages, full participation by women in the life of the church. (My old congregation had a female minister, we moved 40+ miles away or we would still be going there).

LCMS High degree of doctrinal agreement necessary before fellowship is possible.

ELCA Agreement on a more basic level is sufficient for fellowship. (All are welcome in the House of the Lord if you have a thirst for knowledge and a desire deeper understanding of Him and a closer realtionship with Him.)

The LCMS (and WELS for that matter) would *never* have a traditional Jewish Seder (Passover) meal with the Jewish community in the area. Their loss as the fellowship with our Jewish brothers and sisters is a wonderful exchange of ideas and traditions.

I would say, amongst Protestant faiths, 1/3rd to 1/2 do *not* teach fire and brimstone and more than that of the individual believers don't believe it. I can't speak for the largest Christain sect, Catholicism. I am unaware of their numbers who honestly believe or how many congregations as a whole actually teach it. The Roman Catholic church would have you believe they all do, but that's a pipe dream used to keep the power in Rome. The Catholic church in America doesn't always follow everything Rome says it should.

It'd be nice to have evidence and not just hunches. Anyway I was raised in a typical Catholic church with a priest who was no throwback arch-conservative by any stretch, and we learned the standard belief about hell. I'm not extrapolating anything from that, but the fact is Catholic churches do not have autonomy over doctrine so your assertions are highly unlikely.

"You have some weird animus towards the developmentally challenged."

[Citation Needed]

I frankly don't get the fad of Christians participating in Seder. Seems like it should be offensive to both sides. The whole point of the Jesus movement, it seems to me, was the overthrow of the practices of the Pharisees and the Temple cult. Seder was part of that whole shtick. No need to sacrifice lambs anymore, the "lamb of god" arrived, etc.

What does the term "tards" refer to then?

Seder participation is more a fellowship thing combined with a rememberance that Jesus was the passover lamb for Christians, so we should still honor and remember passover and the last supper.

And you are right, I have no evidence. Just hunches. But I never let lack of evidence derail a good discussion. :-)

I'll take your word on the Catholic faith as taught in American churches as I was raised LCA and go to ELCA (a merger of several very similar Lutheran organizations a while back, including LCA).so my knowledge is pretty much with them and with UCC, Baptist, and Church of God where I have attended church for many years. UCC (the real UCC not that bizzare one Obama's preacher did his anti-white thing at) is very liberal in the fire and brimstone sense. Southern baptist wher I went for several years was strict in teaching it, but not in believing it. And the independent Church of God I followed a girl to was all bent out of shape and pretty much wanted me out of their midst for telling the preacher I thought he was a whackjob for his teachings. Guess who was caught siphoning off more than his salary and cheating on his wife?

"I frankly don't get the fad of Christians participating in Seder. Seems like it should be offensive to both sides. The whole point of the Jesus movement, it seems to me, was the overthrow of the practices of the Pharisees and the Temple cult. Seder was part of that whole shtick. No need to sacrifice lambs anymore, the "lamb of god" arrived, etc. "

The last supper was a Seder, Christians want to feel closer to Jesus' experience, so they have a Seder. Assimilated Jews tend to like Christians learning about our culture.

So Santa? Even though Christians coopted your Jehovah (or something to that effect), are you OK with Christians participating in a Seder?

and sacrifice and the temple cult has been dead for 2000 years in Jewish religion

I have had Christians at my Seder for 30 years

*20

Glad to hearit. I thought you were so against Christianity for the whole tirunal God thing. I was concerned about how you'd approach a Seder in that regards. Having a brother-in-law who married into the Jewish faith, I've participated in everything from Jewish (and Jewish blended) weddings to real Jewish Seders in the inlaws house to bar and bat mitvahs, including carrying the Torah from the ark at my nephew's bar mitzvah. The learning experience has been incredible and I wouldn't give it up for the world.

I am against christians who try to convert me or who treat Judaism as some kind of Junior Christianity. I'd have an interesting life in america indeed if i rejected all Christians.

"The last supper was a Seder"

Was it a habit of Jewish authorities to participate in trials and executions during Passover? Seems more plausible that this was a regular meal. The gospels aren't consistent on the date so it's not exactly something anybody can conclusively argue.

Oh God. I would *never* try to convert someone of the Jewish faith to Christianity and I think the Jewish traditions (both secular/societal and religious) are so far superior to most of Christianity... No, you'd have no problem with me. Of course, my onw brand of Christianity is viewed by the conservative Christian sects as heretical seeing as I am more into the message than the man and find much of the NT as highly suspect being as the Gospel was written decades in most cases after the events and Paul had his own set of flaws to be dealt with. Let's face it, The Gospel writers weren't at Christ's birth and they *did* coopt much of the prophecies of the OT to fill in the blanks and enhance Christ's deity. So the Christmas story is a story, not necessarily history. And the activities around John the Baptist's beheading were told through secondhand witnesses, not even first hand testimony, so they are suspect in and of themselves.

No, you'll not find me trying to convert you to follow to the letter a flawed idealogy. You'll find I'm as open to the Jewish traditions and teachings as I am to the Christian ones.

Putin - you were raised Catholic. So you know that, according to Scripture, Jesus was the Passover Lamb. That makes the meal a Seder. But if you want to see a calendar as it relates to the events of Christ's last days and the Passover...

http://www.thesimpletruth.net/booklet/passover.html

"You'll find I'm as open to the Jewish traditions and teachings as I am to the Christian ones."

A cafeteria Theist.

Yeah. What's your point, Putin? I listen and learn and absorb and then decide what seems to fit my world view and sounds reasonable to me. It's better than beiong a "My preacher said it so it must be true" Christian or a "Some preacher said it so it must be false" athiest.

Oh, and I thought 'tards was short for fucktards, those who are stupid in the ways of the world, despite having the intellect to be otherwise. :-P

"Putin - you were raised Catholic. So you know that, according to Scripture, Jesus was the Passover Lamb. That makes the meal a Seder. "

No it doesn't, lambs are slaughtered before the meal. Jesus had the meal and then was slaughtered.

http://www.catholiceducation.org/articles/religion/re1049.htm

"Yeah. What's your point, Putin? I listen and learn and absorb and then decide what seems to fit my world view and sounds reasonable to me."

You're your own Pope. Why bother belonging to a community of believers?

''A cafeteria Theist.''

That must be me then! One who sees many differing paths to the top of the hill. Some bifurcating, some joining others and then leaving them again, but they all lead to the top of the hill in the end. No this is one guy who sees richness in the variety of theist believe rather than weakness. Not for me the argument of ''which particular God do you believe in then?''

One up to you Draug

Um, you do realize the lamb was not eaten at the Seder, right? In fact, they were forbidden from eating sacrificed animals. Yes, the passover meal was eaten after the angle of God passed over and the lambs were sacrificed to smear the door ways with their blood. so yes, that is backwards from the last supper. But the concept was that Jesus was to sacrifice himself so that the Enagle of Death would have no power over mankind anymore. so the last supper was a time for Jesus to tell his faithful of the coming events and prepare them for the future without him.

If the meal occurs before Passover, how is it a Seder? Why does John place the execution prior to the feast?

erev passover is the first Seder? And the gospel specifically says that Jesus was killed during a time of pilgrimage, so thats either Sukkot, Passover, Shavuot, they are reclining, eating matzoh and drinking wine which makes it look awefully like a seder.

And yes Draugnar they did eat the sacrifice (lamb) at the Seder. Jews usually ate the sacrifices a portion of which went to thr priestly class. Sacrifices were kinda like bar be ques the way i understand it.

I have heard (no backing) that the story of Jesus pilgrimage actually seems like two stories grafted together, with one pilgrimage looking a hell of alot like Sukkot (palm leaves and "hosanas" (hoshiana)) and a second part that looks like a Seder. Twoeperate pilgrimages that somehow got grafted together later when early christians didn't know better