Uh, wrong

http://credo.stanford.edu/reports/National_Release.pdf

While the report recognized a robust national demand for more charter schools from parents and
local communities, it found that 17 percent of charter schools reported academic gains that were
significantly better than traditional public schools, while 37 percent of charter schools showed
gains that were worse than their traditional public school counterparts, with 46 percent of charter
schools demonstrating no significant difference.

Charter schools are a joke. They have no standards for their teachers yet the blame-the-teacher crowd likes to claim it's the teachers fault. I could easily get a job at a charter school, or at least much easier than I could at a public school. Because public schools actually require rigorous testing for their teachers. Charter schools also have the ability to vet the students they let in, so you can kick out problem kids if you want to. They also don't have to worry about spending on special needs kids.

"Public education doesn't work. If it did, we wouldn't have an education problem, now would we? "

And ignorant twits like youself also demand immigrant populations assimilate, how are they going to do that without public schools?

"Bullshit. Teachers are a bunch of lazy overpaid union members who are nearly impossible to fire. Maybe they could motivate the kids more if they gave a shit about their jobs and the administrators gave them the freedom to be creative with their lessons. Teachers are thankless because they haven't done anything that deserves thanking."

Yeah and im sure that attitude spread across the country encourages our brightest to consider a career in teaching. I also love how you can damn millions of teachers in one breath. Oh yeah, forgot you are a dumbshit who has never contributed a complete thought to this forum. Just because public education failed you shit-for-brains doesn't mean it failed everyone else.

Just to clarify that last statement, there is a difference between people I disagree with and find insufferable like TC, and complete lack wits who parrot tired old cliches. The former I disagree with, the latter, even if I, by accident, agree with them I realize they are complete dipshits. Gunfighter is one of those imbeciles along with Krellin.

"At the high school (secondary) level, the kids know the stakes. They know that if they don't get good grades and learn, they'll be stuck at McDonald's or Wal-Mart. High schoolers are plenty motivated when you get good teachers. "

Wait wait...at this point, they know the stakes so they can throw off the yoke of parental disinterest, but they can't throw off the yoke of teacher disinterest? They're able to succeed despite the people they're with 24/7 but not despite the people they see for an hour or so a day?

@ Putin33

"the blame-the-teacher crowd likes to claim it's the teachers fault."

I don't blame the teachers. I blame the system. When the system is that fucked up, bad teachers are an unsurprising consequence.

"I could easily get a job at a charter school, or at least much easier than I could at a public school. Because public schools actually require rigorous testing for their teachers."

That works both ways. Private schools and charter schools can easily fire bad teachers, while public school teachers are nearly impossible to fire. Private school administrators also have a lot more personal responsibility. If they screw up at all, the parents can (and will) fire him or take their kids (and their money) out of the school.

"Charter schools also have the ability to vet the students they let in, so you can kick out problem kids if you want to."

Charter schools and private schools don't do that because it would cost them money. The kid is paying to be there. They want his money.

"They also don't have to worry about spending on special needs kids."

There would be charter schools and private schools that would specialize in special needs kids.

@ SantaClausowitz

"And ignorant twits like youself also demand immigrant populations assimilate, how are they going to do that without public schools?"

Immigrants assimilated just fine before there were public schools. Please don't call me an ignorant twit because you happen to disagree with me. There's no need for that. If you can't win an argument without resorting to childish name-calling, then don't get into an argument at all.

"Yeah and im sure that attitude spread across the country encourages our brightest to consider a career in teaching."

If there were private schools, then schools would offer good money to good teachers. People are attracted to money. The best and the brightest people make the best teachers. Schools want them in order to attract customers (students).

"I also love how you can damn millions of teachers in one breath."

Assuming that there are millions of bad teachers. I'm only after the bad ones. I have the utmost respect for the good ones that are trying to educate the kids to the best of their ability.

"Oh yeah, forgot you are a dumbshit who has never contributed a complete thought to this forum."

You probably haven't been paying a lot of attention to the forum. Ask anyone else if I have contributed complete thoughts to the forum. I'm giving you complete thoughts right now.

"Just because public education failed you shit-for-brains doesn't mean it failed everyone else."

I don't think I have "shit-for-brains". Most people of below average intelligence wouldn't have perfect spelling, grammar, and capitalization, not to mention a logical and cohesive argument for something as complex as education.

"there is a difference between people I disagree with and find insufferable like TC, and complete lack wits who parrot tired old cliches. The former I disagree with, the latter, even if I, by accident, agree with them I realize they are complete dipshits. Gunfighter is one of those imbeciles along with Krellin."

Please don't compare me to either of those two.

Tettleton's Chew basic argument:

"Free Market Capitalism! *FAP* *FAP* *FAP*"

krellin's basic argument:

"FUCK I FUCKING HATE ANYONE WHO DISAGREES WITH ME! THEY ARE FUCKING STUPID AS SHITS!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!11"

My standard argument:

"I disagree with <opponent>, and here's why......(logical argument)"
_________________________

I admit that I was a little harsh when I was speaking about bad teachers, but I don't think I'm nearly as bad as krellin, Tettleton's Chew, or some other troll.

@ Sacred Digits

"Wait wait...at this point, they know the stakes so they can throw off the yoke of parental disinterest, but they can't throw off the yoke of teacher disinterest? They're able to succeed despite the people they're with 24/7 but not despite the people they see for an hour or so a day?"

They can't throw off the yoke of teacher disinterest because teachers need to teach them valuable skills that they will need. What they learn in that hour or so is much more important than whatever happens at home.

youre seriously arguing against public schools................. did you know that prohibition and other archaic ideas have failed and are no longer discussed seriously.

also lazy? teachers are lazy?

do you fucking know any teachers lol? those poor motherfuckers will all die young because they are overworked.

get real

Gunfighter what do you mean you against public schools? Should all schools have fees? Would these schools have any subsidy or would they be entirely privately funded?

"Charter schools and private schools don't do that because it would cost them money. The kid is paying to be there. They want his money. "

Wrong, my son was kicked out of two charter schools due to mostly pretty standard ADHD behavior.

Hmmmm. I would like to get into this debate if I had more time. Maybe in the next couple of days I will bring it up again. But you are not alone Gunfighter! I am also against public schooling.

Though I don't agree with Gunfighter on who is to blame. I am with everyone who said that stupid careless parents are the main cause of stupid careless students/kids

Gunfighter

"Teachers are a bunch of lazy overpaid union members who are nearly impossible to fire. Maybe they could motivate the kids more if they gave a shit about their jobs and the administrators gave them the freedom to be creative with their lessons. Teachers are thankless because they haven't done anything that deserves thanking."

Seems like you were speaking about all teachers not the bad ones. And if you actually knew any teachers you would realize how ridiculous this statement is. I had a friend who was forced to grade papers at a college football talegate we were at. I didnt see any of my accounting, finance or legal friends working, and it is not limited to him. My cousin is constantly grading at family get togethers. I remember when i was in school i took it for granted that teachers stayed after school to work with me on something. What other profession would do that? Work for free with a client after business hours? Yet it is expected of teachers. The hatchet job on teachers that you and people like you support is disgusting and only contributes to any education problem

Santa +∞

^I second this

∞^2

Santa +∞*∞

Not all teachers are bad, but the union isn't helping.

IF A TEACHER DESERVES TO BE FIRED, WHY SHOULD THE UNION GIVE A SHIT!!!

Unions do not prevent the firing of bad teachers. That's just nonsense that people have been fed. The first 3-4 years teachers can be fired for any reason whatsoever. Administrators can eliminate positions and thereby let teachers go. This includes if you are teaching at a place for 15 years and then go to a new place, you have to go through the same process again. During the tenure process there is a rigorous evaluation process (with multiple observations by multiple people every year) that few if any other occupations go through. During the tenure process teachers can be fired on multiple occasions. Low performing schools have even more pressure on teachers, and are often required to hand over lesson plans and post learning objectives at all times. Even tenured teachers can be fired. They are observed less often than pre-tenure, and it's harder to do, but it still can be done. With all the angry asshole parents out there who want to fire the teacher for giving their dumb kid the grade they deserved, that's a good thing.

Anyway, unionized school districts outperform non-unionized ones in study after study. See, you teacher haters forget something, teachers unions do things like fight cuts to school programs that help kids learn, they stand up to draconian school boards who think that by increasing classroom size and depriving kids of the equipment they need they can appease the penny pinching DINKs who constantly whine about school taxes.

I should have added that in most places the union doesn't represent you pre-tenure.

Also, the union isn't the person who hired the bad teacher to begin with, as my friend who has an administrative role in a teacher's union tells me all the time.

@ Thucydides

"youre seriously arguing against public schools................. did you know that prohibition and other archaic ideas have failed and are no longer discussed seriously."

I am in favor of a privatization of the educational system. And no, it is not archaic. I envision a voucher system similar to what is widely used in western Europe. State-run public education is archaic and its forced implementation is quite sad.

"also lazy? teachers are lazy?

do you fucking know any teachers lol? those poor motherfuckers will all die young because they are overworked."

See below for my response to Santa's comment, which is similar to yours.

@ spyman

"Gunfighter what do you mean you against public schools? Should all schools have fees? Would these schools have any subsidy or would they be entirely privately funded?"

I am in favor of a privatization of the education system with some sort of voucher program. No schools would receive money directly from the government. All kids would get vouchers for X dollars to use at the school of their choice. The bad schools would fail and close. The good schools would prosper and grow.

@ SacredDigits

That's very anecdotal and not supported by statistics.

Regardless, if the system was privatized, there would be plenty of schools eager to earn your business. I admit that kids fall through the cracks with the current system.

@ SantaClausowitz

"Seems like you were speaking about all teachers not the bad ones."

I corrected myself and apologized in the post immediately following that one.

"I had a friend who was forced to grade papers at a college football talegate we were at......My cousin is constantly grading at family get togethers. I remember when i was in school i took it for granted that teachers stayed after school to work with me on something. What other profession would do that? Work for free with a client after business hours?"

Plenty of professions work long hours. Teachers have it pretty easy compared to airline pilots, crab boat fishermen, car salesmen, and stock brokers. The standard 9 to 5 is less common than you think.

@ Putin33

"Unions do not prevent the firing of bad teachers. That's just nonsense that people have been fed. The first 3-4 years teachers can be fired for any reason whatsoever. Administrators can eliminate positions and thereby let teachers go. This includes if you are teaching at a place for 15 years and then go to a new place, you have to go through the same process again. During the tenure process there is a rigorous evaluation process (with multiple observations by multiple people every year) that few if any other occupations go through. During the tenure process teachers can be fired on multiple occasions. Low performing schools have even more pressure on teachers, and are often required to hand over lesson plans and post learning objectives at all times. Even tenured teachers can be fired. They are observed less often than pre-tenure, and it's harder to do, but it still can be done."

Can you back that up?

http://www.usatoday.com/news/education/2008-06-30-teacher-tenure-costs_N.htm

Firing tenured teachers is extremely difficult and expensive. Firing nontenured teachers is easy, but how difficult is it to get tenure? Based on student performance, I would say not very difficult.

"unionized school districts outperform non-unionized ones in study after study"

We are not debating union vs. nonunion. We're debating public vs. private. Unions are simply the force that viciously attacks any attempt to reform or improve the education system.

"teachers unions do things like fight cuts to school programs that help kids learn"

It doesn't matter how much we spend on education. Test scores don't improve.

http://www.usgovernmentspending.com/downchart_gs.php?year=1900_2014&view=1&expand=&units=b&log=linear&fy=fy12&chart=20-total_20-statelocal&bar=0&stack=1&size=m&title=&state=US&color=c&local=s

http://perceptionasreality.blogspot.com/2011/08/federal-spending-per-pupil-reading-math.html

@ SacredDigits (again, I didn't see your last post)

"Also, the union isn't the person who hired the bad teacher to begin with, as my friend who has an administrative role in a teacher's union tells me all the time."

But the union is blocking the administration from firing the bad teacher.

"@ SacredDigits

That's very anecdotal and not supported by statistics. "

Not supported by statistics? Explain and link the statistics you reference.

Now, praytell Sacred- which one of those professions work overtime for free?

Think you got the wrong guy there Santa.

@ SacredDigits

I did.

@ SantaClausowitz

Car salesmen and stock brokers work like crazy and don't make a dime of overtime.

dont both work on commission

"Car salesmen and stock brokers work like crazy and don't make a dime of overtime."

Don't stockbrokers have on average the highest paying job available? I've seen way too many car salesmen standing around drinking coffee, and both can pee whenever they feel like it.

Where?

As for voucher system, consider this.

The cheapest student to educate is the most intelligent one, for they can grasp concepts practically on their own. The most expensive to educate are those with special needs. This is obvious to anyone who thinks it over at all.

So, every child gets a voucher for x dollars. Which group of children are the business people going to target? The ones where they can spend the least amount possible to get that x. Simple economics. Why have expensive remedial classes that require more teacher to student time when you can just reap the rewards of teaching the easiest kids? And if that niche is filled, why bother going into the education business?