"How can you not envision it not protecting people?"
An educated populace is a dangerous populace.

"An educated populace is more aware of it's rights, so they are better able to protect themselves from abuse of authority."
Authority from what?

"Additionally it makes it easier for them to obtain jobs and provide for themselves and their familes. Hence protecting them from starvation and poverty."
But if their the scum of the earth, do they really need protection from what they deserve?

"Guess if you decide that protecting doesn't include abuse of authority, starvation, poverty.

Then sure it doesn't protect them from anything."
We are talking not about a developed nation like Canada or America here, we are talking about Egypt a poor nation in Africa which can't afford to provide all its citizens with proper education. By educating them you only put the state at risk, which isn't worth it.

"Damian, he doesn't have an issue with authority "abusing" anything."
+1

"He said earlier that the Egyptian protesters should (and I paraphrase) shut up, go home, and be thankful they have such an enlightened despot as Mubarak, instead of standing up for what they want."
Actually I said they should shut the fuck up and learn their place in society.

"I'm getting strong hint of Social Darwinism from Fasces."
Your only thinking this because the second political debate I had on this forum had me supporting social darwinism.

"An educated populace is also better able to participate in the free market. If you're not able to understand basic math, you can't truly be a participant in a free market. And if a number of your citizens cannot participate in the free market, is it free?"
Were talking about Egypt, a country where the government can't afford this. I agree that in a developed nation, education should be free and will actually go far enough into thinking that public schools are currently underfunded. But this is Egypt we are talking about.

"I'm getting a bit of that myself. However it seems to be economic Darwinism. Because he suggests that he desires an oligarchic meritocracy. (Something which might be a good idea if there was a good way to decide how someone is worthy of holding a top spot)"
Simple, those currently on top get to decide.

"Even if you don't support the development of new intellects, a state education can be very important in helping brainwash the populace to believe the garbage your spewing."
I agree, HOWEVER this is a nation that is to poor to do things like this.

Only two things:
"Authority from what?"
That makes no sense...

"Actually I said they should shut the fuck up and learn their place in society. "
And you believe in the free market? Isn't part of the point of free markets is that people can better themselves and society through innovation, efficiency, etc (theoretically)

..Umm okay Cos thanks I had just listed off three examples from the top of my head. But more examples never hurt.

Gold, you are right about me not having an issue with with a legitimately benevolent dictator. However I do take serious issue with right wing economics, because I feel that the power over people lives economically should be in their hands. Through a democratically elected government rather then in that hands of corporations, who only care about profit.

I don't agree with the economic theory, or the political policies that are associated with it. I do however prefer an elected government to a dictator, because it provides the opportunity to change things by getting involved in the system.

Yeah, well look what and uneducated populace has caused in Egypt. If they are so stupid as you suggest and unable to understand how wonderful their leader is. Would you not agree that if they were taught that then they would be less of a danger to their government?

Abuse of authority. It's a term we use when police decide to ignore law intended to protect peoples rights.

Scum of the earth? What they deserve? Really now. Just because they were born into poverty they are instantly judged and worthless and unfit for society. Society cannot run without all aspects of it. If you cut out the lower class and just keep the intellectual cream of the crop then you will face a society with no raw material and nobody to manufacture products.

A poor nation in Africa that could afford to provide it's citizens with education before the latest regime. As you continue to repeat an educated populace is a danger to the government. Why is that? if the government is really benevolent then it makes it easier to explain to them, really it's only if the government exploits it's people that they have something to worry about.

And you should do the same as them. Shut up and learn your place in society. Unless you feel that there shouldn't be a caste system in place and people should have the opportunity to better their lot in life. In a caste system there is no such freedom. Guess you don't actually give a crap about freedom. Congrats on your education you can spend the rest of your life as a middle class corporate cog.

Believe me that's all you've got ahead of you in your ideal world unless your start out rich or in power.

Too poor to help it's people.

Fasces a life has no net value and no profit margin. Everyone person should be given the right to an education so they can make the most of their life. Debt be damned.

"Only two things:
"Authority from what?"
That makes no sense..."
In the government I envision I see no reason to protect people from Authority. You make it sound like Authority is a bad thing.

"And you believe in the free market? Isn't part of the point of free markets is that people can better themselves and society through innovation, efficiency, etc (theoretically)"
However they should do it legally, start doing something that can better themselves and society through innovation, efficiency, etc and stop complaining where they are now.

"This...is truly an amazing last sentence. "Don't deserve to decide who the leaders are". Then who does deserve this? Who should pick the leaders, Fasces?"
Those who are smart enough and educated enough to choose. Since I like an Oligarchy I think it should be that said Oligarchy that chooses who inherits them.

"No, an uneducated populace is easier exploited by the "free" market."
I believe I answered this. But if not, I feel that the people should be educated, however not to the expense of the government. If the government can't afford to then it shouldn't.

"Furthermore, one could say the same about nearly all economic systems. A smart person could prevail in feudal areas, right? They'd have the patronage, right? It's the same thing--except the judge is now the noble rather than the advertisers"
HUH? Once a peasant always a peasant, very rarely where the changes in class.

"We are talking not about a developed nation like Canada or America here, we are talking about Egypt a poor nation in Africa which can't afford to provide all its citizens with proper education. By educating them you only put the state at risk, which isn't worth it."

America was once an undeveloped nation and so was Canada, people then fought for the right to eduation and low food prices, what difference does it make if egyptians are doing it now?

it's not about wealth of a nation, every nation has managed to feed it's population. It's about the relative quality of food (or what the distribution of wealth - uneven means the rich and powerful can eat whatever they want and afford to educate their children to become the new ruling class)

People do not like living in an unfair, uneven society, and as i previously mentioned a part of our brains is hardwired to appreciate 'fair'-ness, it has been amply demonstrated in humans and it has also been demonstrated in chimps.

Given this fact of human nature, keeping the population down make the state inherently unstable and weak.

Also, i don't know if anyone mentioned this, but Egypt is in the Arab world, as fairly well developed area. When people talk about hte poverty in Africa they're mostly refering to subsaharan africa as opposed to the mediterranian coast, which has for millenia benifited from trading links throughout the mediterranian.

Egypt is not like the Sudan (it's nearest southern neighbour) it is more like Jordan, Tunisia or Morocco.

Lastly, maybe you as a person shouldn't get education paid for by the government. I mean they can't really afford it, what with military expenditure being so high.

Might aswell just give people guns and weapons training that way the country is safe and you don't waste any money on education.

And very lastly, an educated population can attract international businesses to re-locate to your stable middle eastern, Arab nation. The availability of a well-educated Egyptian populance would imporve the economy.

"Gold, you are right about me not having an issue with with a legitimately benevolent dictator. However I do take serious issue with right wing economics, because I feel that the power over people lives economically should be in their hands. Through a democratically elected government rather then in that hands of corporations, who only care about profit."
Thats the beauty of capitalism, whats good for the consumer is ultimately good for the corporation. However it isn't their top priority, unlike retarded democratic governments.

"I don't agree with the economic theory, or the political policies that are associated with it. I do however prefer an elected government to a dictator, because it provides the opportunity to change things by getting involved in the system."
Change in a democracy? The opposite of PROgress is CONgress for a reason

"Yeah, well look what and uneducated populace has caused in Egypt. If they are so stupid as you suggest and unable to understand how wonderful their leader is. Would you not agree that if they were taught that then they would be less of a danger to their government?"
Because the government can't afford to do so.

"Abuse of authority. It's a term we use when police decide to ignore law intended to protect peoples rights."
I don't quite follow, if a policeman abuses his authority he gets fired. Its pretty basic.

"Scum of the earth? What they deserve? Really now. Just because they were born into poverty they are instantly judged and worthless and unfit for society. Society cannot run without all aspects of it. If you cut out the lower class and just keep the intellectual cream of the crop then you will face a society with no raw material and nobody to manufacture products."
However if you have a job, you can buy food. We are talking about Egypt here, they don't have many resources to export.

The scum are the earth are the homeless who don't have jobs and refuse to look. They are generally the ones who don't have any money so can't afford food.

"A poor nation in Africa that could afford to provide it's citizens with education before the latest regime. As you continue to repeat an educated populace is a danger to the government. Why is that? if the government is really benevolent then it makes it easier to explain to them, really it's only if the government exploits it's people that they have something to worry about."
Greed. If the people know that life can be better then what they have, and they think a way to do this is to rebel, they will rebel.
Although Egypt could provide education in the past, was it really benefitting the people of Egypt? Ignorance is Bliss, especially in poorer nations,.

"And you should do the same as them."
I know my place. The Egyptians do not.

"Unless you feel that there shouldn't be a caste system in place and people should have the opportunity to better their lot in life. In a caste system there is no such freedom. Guess you don't actually give a crap about freedom. Congrats on your education you can spend the rest of your life as a middle class corporate cog.

Believe me that's all you've got ahead of you in your ideal world unless your start out rich or in power."
I don't believe in Caste. You have the thoughts of the common middle class citizen. The fact is the Entrepreneurs make more money then you because they earned it, so you should shut up and know your place.

The fact is, the harder working you are, the better off your life will be. There is luck, I can admit that, but everything boils down to luck in the end, so I see why your place in life when you were born should be taken out of the equation.

"Lastly, maybe you as a person shouldn't get education paid for by the government. I mean they can't really afford it, what with military expenditure being so high."
Which nation are you referring to here Ora? :S

"Too poor to help it's people.

Fasces a life has no net value and no profit margin. Everyone person should be given the right to an education so they can make the most of their life. Debt be damned."
A life has a value. Bill Gates life is valued at 50 Billion for example.

"America was once an undeveloped nation and so was Canada, people then fought for the right to eduation and low food prices, what difference does it make if egyptians are doing it now?"
America and Canada were never undeveloped, and Canada certainly never fought for the right to education and low food prices. Also the ways to develop a nation in the 1800s is different then the modern day. Educating its people wont develop the nation any faster, there are more efficient ways to do it.

"it's not about wealth of a nation, every nation has managed to feed it's population."
So all those dieing kids in Africa are just fine with the current food its nation is providing.

"It's about the relative quality of food (or what the distribution of wealth - uneven means the rich and powerful can eat whatever they want and afford to educate their children to become the new ruling class)"
Thats the thing, we don't have enough food to feed everyone above the poverty line, so those who have earned a place in society have the right to more food.

"People do not like living in an unfair, uneven society, and as i previously mentioned a part of our brains is hardwired to appreciate 'fair'-ness, it has been amply demonstrated in humans and it has also been demonstrated in chimps.

Given this fact of human nature, keeping the population down make the state inherently unstable and weak."
In most circumstances yes. But not in already poor unstable nations like Egypt.

"Also, i don't know if anyone mentioned this, but Egypt is in the Arab world, as fairly well developed area. When people talk about hte poverty in Africa they're mostly refering to subsaharan africa as opposed to the mediterranian coast, which has for millenia benifited from trading links throughout the mediterranian.

Egypt is not like the Sudan (it's nearest southern neighbour) it is more like Jordan, Tunisia or Morocco."
its still got an extremely low GDP per capita.

"Lastly, maybe you as a person shouldn't get education paid for by the government. I mean they can't really afford it, what with military expenditure being so high. "
Protecting the people is the priority.

"Might aswell just give people guns and weapons training that way the country is safe and you don't waste any money on education."
Don't make me answer something some blatantly obvious.

"And very lastly, an educated population can attract international businesses to re-locate to your stable middle eastern, Arab nation. The availability of a well-educated Egyptian populance would imporve the economy."
But would it improve the stability of the country?

Alright, setting education aside, please reconcile your statement about a government's duty being to protect the people with your statement that some people don't deserve food. You danced a little by picking the easier argument, now respond to the other part.

I don't know what your talking about. What I do know is if you can't afford something, no matter what it is, you don't deserve it. besides, food prices aren't that high, if they were corporations would lower it so that they could sell more and earn more profit.

Also @Sacred, based on the many games we have played together what is your opinion of me diplomatically compared to your opinion of my politically?

If the government's duty is to protect the people, should they not protect them from starvation? What exactly does the government protect people from, if not that?

As for politics vs. Diplomacy, I think oddly enough you're far more straightforward and fact-based in Diplomacy. Which is not intended as any form of "dig", it's just how I see it. But it makes sense when I think about it enough.

Politics are a many-faceted thing. There's a lot of variables, not all of which are immediately visible, and much of it runs on theory. With Diplomacy, there's 34 SC's, and where they are isn't likely to change.

“In the government I envision I see no reason to protect people from Authority. You make it sound like Authority is a bad thing.”
Actually if you were listening I was talking about abuse of authority, and how knowing your rights allows a person to protect themselves from that.

“Those who are smart enough and educated enough to choose. Since I like an Oligarchy I think it should be that said Oligarchy that chooses who inherits them.”
Humorously if you refuse to provide education to the people then the Oligarchy will continue to just elect the same people over and over again; people who don’t give a crap about the majority who are starving only the members of the Oligarchic electoral body.

“HUH? Once a peasant always a peasant, very rarely where the changes in class.”
And that is a caste system, 100% so.
“Thats the beauty of capitalism, whats good for the consumer is ultimately good for the corporation. However it isn't their top priority, unlike retarded democratic governments.”
No it’s not. The corporation only cares about profit, and abusing the working class to get them to work cheap increases profit, and selling crappy products which break in a year so the consumer has to buy another one = more profit. What’s good for the corporation isn’t always good for the consumer. It always hurts somebody down the line. You just choose to ignore it because you don’t care about any life beyond a median income

“Change in a democracy? The opposite of PROgress is CONgress for a reason”
Oh ha ha. You’re funny. Yes change is a hell of a lot slower in democracies but it’s not like it doesn’t happen. The difference is that the change that occurs is usually something that will benefit the population.

“I don't quite follow, if a policeman abuses his authority he gets fired. Its pretty basic.”
Yeah. However an uneducated population can’t always tell when their rights have been abused thus the importance of education.
“However if you have a job, you can buy food. We are talking about Egypt here, they don't have many resources to export.

The scum are the earth are the homeless who don't have jobs and refuse to look. They are generally the ones who don't have any money so can't afford food.”
You can have a job and still not be able to afford to feed your family. This is particularly true when you consider what the price of food in Egypt has been doing of late. In this case was referring to a general scenario, but hey let’s say we throw away the bottom tier of the Egyptian poor. People who work as maids/janitors, Farmers, garbage collectors suddenly we have no food being produced within Egypt, and a dirtier cities which means that disease is more common.

“I don't believe in Caste. You have the thoughts of the common middle class citizen. The fact is the Entrepreneurs make more money then you because they earned it, so you should shut up and know your place.”
Yes, yes you do I’ve already pointed it out earlier is this post. I don’t give a crap about money. That’s the funny part. I don’t care about what they earned. I care about human life, and the fact that they exploit it to live while others suffer. Does that mean I don’t know my “Place” no it means that I refuse to accept it. Being a cog in a machine is boring, and a pathetic waste of life.
“The fact is, the harder working you are, the better off your life will be. There is luck, I can admit that, but everything boils down to luck in the end, so I see why your place in life when you were born should be taken out of the equation.”
Yeah. Let’s just ignore the plight of the people and consider them peasant scum because they had bad luck. That’s a free fair society.

“A life has a value. Bill Gates life is valued at 50 Billion for example.”
Yeah a life has value, non-monetary value, which is eminently more important than any material possessions. Heck I wouldn’t care if someone killed Bill Gates. I’d probably be pretty happy about it. But someone who loved him, they’d give away ever cent of that 50 billion to get him back.
This worth is so much more than a bit of profit. So who cares about a few extra dollars, governments should put their money into education so a person can live a fulfilling life, otherwise you’ve destroyed more value than money could ever be placed upon.

"If the government's duty is to protect the people, should they not protect them from starvation? What exactly does the government protect people from, if not that?"
Crime, enemy invaders. If they don't deserve to be protected (like the hobos on the street) then they shouldn't protect them.

"As for politics vs. Diplomacy, I think oddly enough you're far more straightforward and fact-based in Diplomacy. Which is not intended as any form of "dig", it's just how I see it. But it makes sense when I think about it enough.

Politics are a many-faceted thing. There's a lot of variables, not all of which are immediately visible, and much of it runs on theory. With Diplomacy, there's 34 SC's, and where they are isn't likely to change."
Meh! As you know, when it comes to diplomacy I am ally about honor, I'm surprised you haven't question the honor behind my fascist (out of the lack of a better term) ideals.

"Actually if you were listening I was talking about abuse of authority, and how knowing your rights allows a person to protect themselves from that."
Which is why the people have a right to free education. I agree that education can protect the people, but the education of the people should not come to the expense of the country, and thats what I was saying.

"Humorously if you refuse to provide education to the people then the Oligarchy will continue to just elect the same people over and over again; people who don’t give a crap about the majority who are starving only the members of the Oligarchic electoral body."
Electoral? When did I say they are elected? I said appointed. Also read my above point, I have made it very clear that education should be free as long the country can afford it. In Egypt's case it cannot.

"No it’s not. The corporation only cares about profit, and abusing the working class to get them to work cheap increases profit, and selling crappy products which break in a year so the consumer has to buy another one = more profit. What’s good for the corporation isn’t always good for the consumer. It always hurts somebody down the line. You just choose to ignore it because you don’t care about any life beyond a median income"
But eventually a corporation will release better products so they can sell them at higher prices. The fact is, the better the product, the more likely someone will buy it, and as long as the free market has competitism it will always naturally work in the consumers favor.

"Oh ha ha. You’re funny. Yes change is a hell of a lot slower in democracies but it’s not like it doesn’t happen. The difference is that the change that occurs is usually something that will benefit the population."
But changes happening in the democratic government focus on the short term, and as it takes to long to pass, by the time it is passed, it is no longer needed. Its to slow, thats a (not the, there is to many problems) with democracy.

Answer the rest later, need to go eat.

Who judges who deserves protection from what and when? I mean, it's not just hobos who are starving. And shouldn't the government have some mechanism where those who have a desire to be employed can be? That's not the case in Egypt now, but it has been the case in previous fascist governments: Mussolini and Hitler both were very interested in getting rid of unemployment. We can make all the arguments in the world about the lowest common denominator and what they deserve, but there's plenty of people who are not the LCD in Egypt who are starving and unemployed.

Honor vs. advocating oligarchy? I don't see those being necessarily mutually exclusive. You're rather honest about what you're advocating, so I don't see how that's necessarily dishonorable.

@ largeham

Thanks. It's good to be back.

And what else should the government of Egypt spend money on?

Stabilizing food prices.
Health Care.
Education.
Public Services (Water purification, Garbage collection etc.)

I can't think of much else they need to worry about.

Heck they could scrap most of the military they have or at least stop investing in growing it if they are short on funds.

Appointed, Elected. When you get down to a small enough group of people the two are practically the same thing.

There has been innovation and new ideas in products sure. But the net trend in all products has been towards crappier products sold and the same price or more adjusted for inflation.

Cars.. Sure they look prettier now but they're build quality is inferior
Appliances... You can't get parts for most appliances now a days and even when you can most people don't know how to fix them. It's not a sign of higher quality products when a microwave from 20 years ago outlasts one bought 3 years ago.
Phones... Breaks at end of warranty get a new one. Nobody knows how to fix them any more. Most phones are built to be obsoleted by the next model
Clothing... New fashion lines, but on average production has been shifted from produced in America to China, quality control standards have dropped

The trend has been to products to be used, disposed of and then buy another one. That is a trend towards crappier build quality, and "cheaper" prices Something which hurts the consumer in the long run. It doesn't always work in the consumers favour. At least not when it comes to product quality. Price maybe.

Yeah some governments like to focus on the short term. Doesn't mean all governments do.

Actually more governments where I am like to make promises and plan that are supposed to be completed the year after an election. >.< Stupid stupid stupid!

Democracy; not the most effective system. However I'd rather have a say in how my country is run then being stuck in an oligarchy where someone else decides if I'm worth or not to effect the course of my country.

You must live in a similar time zone to me. Since I need to go eat supper now as well.

@ Fasces

Sorry. I shouldn't be judging you when I haven't even read your posts. But it's awful hard to disagree with the rest of the Forum. Believe me, I know.

I wonder what Egyptians want. Does anyone know if the protesters are a minority or represent the will of the Egyptian people?

"How does education protect people?"

...

Well, Fasces, the thing is, generally--and I just mean generally here--when people are educated and are allowed to actually learn they can--at least some of them--become INFORMED, and when you ahve an INFORMED citizenry they might actually at some point become an INTELLIGENT and AWARE citizenry...

And once a group is intelligent, aware, and informed about the issues around them they MIGHT wake up and say "Gee, this 'president' of ours has been in office 30 years and has seen our economy hit the toilet and has refused to pay his civil workers and has taken away basic human rights...basic human rights! *I* know what those are, I *LEARNED* about those!

"Inalienable rights, among these, life, liberty, and the protection of property and the pursuit of happiness!
"Man is born free, and yet everywhere he is in chains!

GEE, we ARE in social chains right now...we might want to DO SOMETHING to regain these rights that we've been denied!"



(So in short, Fasces, education is THE MOST IMPORTANT form of education--after all, once you're educated, you KNOW you're in an police state and your rights have been taken away and you've been treated horrible, you KNOW...

And knowing is half the battle!)

;)

I'm a little confused.

Fasces wants an uneducated, poor populace, ruled by a wealthy intellectual government, so that they can participate in a free market?

How are poor uneducated people supposed to participate in the free market?

In addition, isn't that a very short term view? The intellectuals of today aren't always going to breed, or, if they do, are not going to breed the most intelligent humans. By denying a majority of the population education, you pretty much doom your country to quickly run out of intelligent people to run it.

Yes, an all-knowing benevolent dictator would be awesome. A continuous stream of perfect, all-knowing benevolent dictators would be the greatest thing to ever happen to a single country.

Are either of those things likely to happen? no. Hence, democracy (or in America's case, a republic).

better trolls, please.

Late, but I've come to the conclusion that Fasces is a troll, especially when he called 80%+ of the world the 'scum of the earth', yet earlier said he wants everyone to have more economic freedom.

Sorry, fasces, the jig is up.

No, he's a kid that's gotten pushed around a bit, and perhaps understandably has a bit of hostility towards the world. As a result, he dreams of a world where "superior" people like him rule, and the people who have tormented him are reduced to the status that they deserve.

He seems quite taken with himself, and that sort of egoism often comes from a place of anger and inferiority.

The best part about this is the sheer irony. If such an oligarchy existed, it would have no interest in an autistic kid with dyslexia, or even be interested in trying to bring out his more useful qualities. Just another broken worker for the machine.

Personally, I like Fasces "the US was never underdeveloped". He's obviously not from the States, where we know that there was a time when completing six years of education was not typical.

And I like his "if the police abuse their authority, they get fired". I guess it depends on the definition of "abuse their authority". Tell me....who fired the military when they seized power in Egypt? Who fired the security forces when they tortured? Exactly who in the "Oligarchy" that he admires has any incentive to fire any of the staff which keep them in power?

Hard to know if he is ignorant...disingenuous....or just a troll :)