Why dont you guys stop giving Mujus a bunch of Smack. I personally enjoy going through and reading the bible verses. I think that He is doing a very good deed posting these for us every day, If you guys dont like it then stop being a bunch of trolls

lol, nice attempt at changing the topic of conversation, YJ. My only point was that your defense against having dehumanized was, specifically, a fallacy. Which it was. I'm happy not to have an abortion debate, just as you are.

Well, that's truly not what I was attempting to do, Semck. I really thought you were raising the dehumanizing part as a segue into the obvious next step in the argument (had you wished to pursue it).

I don't think you can yet make any claim about the fallacy of my defense against whether what I said was dehumanizing, because I never offered a defense. Nor do I intend to, for the reasons already stated. You (likely) believe that any mindset that views the right to life as anything short of sacrosanct and incontrovertible is dehumanizing. I do not.

Now, to tackle that matter... In short, if I refuse (and I do) to attempt to establish an agreement on premise (i.e. what constitutes dehumanizing), than ANY conclusion I draw from that premise is fallacious. You win.

Um, not necessarily. But my point was much simpler. Something can be dehumanizing and technically true. That is all. This is because it can state some of the facts but not all of them. It wasn't really meant to be a huge or profound point. Sorry if it seemed like I was gearing up for abortiothon 2012. I've had enough of those on here to last me awhile.

lol good enough old buddy.

Now, lets please turn the topic to the points I have listed and what everybody here intends to do to get you religious types back on the right path.

what kind, talks bad about another? was Jesus right to talk down apon Lucifer.
in this aspect who would b evil?

religion is a cult formed decades ago to kill the population

religion kills. why is it the right path to follow?

Jesus loves you smokeout.

Smokeout, it's great that you're thinking about religion, but that word sort of implies all sorts of rules to follow to make ourselves better than other people so that we can go do heaven. Believing in the real God who created the world and us, then came down to rescue us from our own steep descent into Hell, is not like that. Yesterday I met an ex-atheist, 64 years old, from a very tough neighborhood of Chicago, when he showed up to fix my stove. He was on the streets and on his own from age 14 and never had a dad. He became a tough guy, boxed, lifted weights, shook people down for money (until an old lady shamed him out of that). He went around picking fights with Christians by saying that the Bible was a joke book, etc., until an old man called him on it and told him how ignorant it is to argue against something that you don't understand and haven't even read. By this time he had served in military intelligence and knew how to analyze data, and he set out to prove the Bible wrong, so he bought one of those fold-out timelines of Bible chronology, taped it over his desk, and set out to compare Genesis and the prophets with real-life history. He was floored as he saw the accuracy with which Darius, Alexander the Great, and everything he could check on was presented in the Bible, and one day it dawned on him that it was true.

"go to heaven" I meant.

+1s for smoekout...

I have a request, Mujus, for tomorrow's sermon, or posting, or what have you--

I'm sure you love the Book of Job...considered a classic...

I would like that posted, if you will, and tell me, NOT why or how God is testing Job...



I want to know why Satan just strolls up to God like they're at the water cooler and makes this bet like they're plunking down cash on a Monday Night Football game.

xD

"Hey God, 's up?"
"Yo, Satan...hear about my homeboy, Job? He's a true bro, man, up in here--"
"Yeah, but that's only cuz he got it good, you know, you fuck shit up him...boom!"
"You wanna bet?"
"Oh, I totally wanna bet!"

And what was cut from the Bible:

Moses: Ah, yeah, let me get in on this action!
Buddha: Pff, that's nothing, man, 's like I say, Life is Suffering, wake up, bro, wake up!
Jesus: Fifty on Job!
Muhammad: Fifty against!
Vishnu: Eight arms, no waiting, eighty says Job converts!
Hitchens: Two hundred says he becomes an athe--wait, what am I doing here?!?!

:p

(Seriously, the way it's just written as Satan and God almost meeting at a water cooler and making abet on a man's life on a whim...that sounds like a Monty Python SPOOF of a Bible passage...so awful, yet so darkly hilarious!) XD

I recall that this started with YJ calling Mujus a "faker" because he copy-pastes these Bible passages instead of typing them out, and I amusedly wondered on what basis YJ was making his charges, insofar as he admittedly has not read the Bible, so I'm still waiting for an answer on that one. But we don't have to go there if YJ doesn't want to, and also I'm fine with not descending into an abortion debate (again).

- You should respect my decision to not believe.
- You should never threaten me with brimstone (though it's kinda funny when you do).
- You should change your beliefs when they contradict fact.
- You should respect my right to marry whoever I want.
- You should respect my right to remove unwanted parasites from my body.
- You should admit that while there are good lessons within, the Bible is not internally consistent.
- You should admit that prayer does nothing.
- You should consider the possibility that of the 2,000 different ways to worship God, maybe, just maybe, YOURS isn't the only one true one.
- You should consider the implications of the Bible as we know it not having been written in Jesus' time.
- You should consider the implications of the lack of role for women in most major sects of Christianity.
- You should consider the implications that a million men kept in isolation all their lives will never come up with Jesus. They'll come up with a million other fantastic stories.
- You should keep your beliefs within your churches and homes.

1. Sure, I respect your decision to not believe. I hope you respect my decision to believe. Mutual respect is a cornerstone of a peaceful society. I personally want to live in a peaceful society.
2. If I don't warn you about the eternal consequences of our choices in this life I am being a faker, so please pick which you want, fakers who don't talk about hell or non-fakers who do.
3. Fine, I will. Hope you'll do the same.
4. Clearly we have different definitions of marriage, so we'll have to learn to live peacefully in disagreement. I have no problem with that.
5. Already discussed that briefly and decided not to have a big abortion discussion.
6. I believe the BIble is internally consistent, and since I've read it more than you I'll consider myself the expert on this point :-)
7. Prayer does do things, even from a purely naturalistic standpoint, so I'll admit no such thing.
8. It is entirely possible that I don't worship God rightly. I consider this on an almost daily basis.
9. I have considered how/why the Bible developed in the way that it did. I've read and heard a variety of viewpoints and have come to certain conclusions.
10. I have considered the lack of role for women in most Christian sects, and it saddens me greatly. I believe it springs from an incorrect interpretation of the Bible, and I belong to a sect that actively promotes important roles for women in church life.
11. Not sure what you meant by a million men not coming up with Jesus. Are you suggesting that Jesus was not a historical person? Sorry if I totally misunderstood.
12. I'm sorry to break it to you, but Christianity is by definition a proselytizing faith. It is a way of life, not a set of rituals or quiet meditations that can be performed privately and left at the threshhold of the home or place of worship. So I'm afraid you're going to have to deal with Christian ideas in the open marketplace of ideas until you get rid of all the Christians, which has proven to be a very difficult task. Violent repression has often backfired on the repressors, so encouraging syncretism is probably your best bet.

YellowJacket, I have you muted because of your language. This is a family-friendly computer! However, I sometimes read the posts before I log on, when they're all visible. Others have done more than I can in responding to you, so I'll focus on the conversation between God and Satan that both you and Obi refer to. We don't understand everything about angelic beings like the devil was created to be, but at various places in the Bible he is called the accuser, the serpent, Lucifer, and although I'm not an expert, I believe from my reading that he was created to be a glorious being, with free will, and he chose pride over humility and fell from heaven as a result. However, God still permits him a role. If you ever get a chance, read an Intervarsity Press book called The Singer, an allegory that puts the whole Satan thing in a form that made real sense to me. Also interesting is one aspect of Satan's work dealt with in a fictional book by C.S. Lewis--the Screwtape Letters. And if you really want to debate with Christians, why don't you prove the Bible wrong? That's a challenge.

YJ, The devil can do nothing withough Gods permission, He is subject to God and will always be. Therefore, He questioned Job's loyalty to God so he asked permission to test him. God allowed satin to do whatever he wished as a test to job to see if he was a loyal and true christian. If you read on he was blessed significantly for being a loyal christian through his hardships

Actually The Singer is the first short book of a trilogy, which also includes The Song and The Finale. Satan appears throughout. The danger with studying Satan is that one can become fascinated by the power and danger. Christians don't need to be afraid of Satan because Jesus has already won. This all reminds me of a story from a few years back. As a student I had a number of jobs at various times, including one at a fast food place close to my place. I invited the other employees to my apartment one day each week, and a couple of them came at first, then they brought others the next time, etc. It never got too big, but I remember the first time one of the guys got there. When I opened the door, I saw his face go white, and he immediately said to the two who brought him, "We just came to say 'hi,' so let's go now." I had no idea what was bothering him, but they pooh-poohed him and dragged him inside. He was very uncomfortable and left within a half hour. Later, in talking with him, I learned that he had been involved to an extent with a bunch of Satan worshippers, and he implied that there had been some animal sacrifices and maybe worse, but that it scared him very badly and he got out of the group. So when he got to my apartment, over my shoulder on the coat closet door facing the entry door, he saw a poster of a beautiful meadow with the words, "Are you ready to face Jesus Christ?" Since he knew that Satan was very scary, he figured that Jesus must be even scarier. But the Bible says to resist the devil, but flee temptation. And the devil has no power over our souls, if we have Jesus in our lives.

"Why don't you prove the Bible wrong? That's a challenge."

That's the rub, isn't it, Mujus? The same challenge can be issued by a Muslim in regards to the Quran. Or by a Mormon in regards to the Book of Mormon. Or by a Hindu in regards to the Upanishads, the Mahaburata, and the Vedas. Or by a scientologist in regards to... whatever book they read.

The same challenge can be issued in regards to Lord of the Rings or Chronicles of Narnia or the Arthurian legends.

The same challenge can be issued in regards to the Iliad and Odyssey (both of which have some archeological and astronomical evidence supporting them), not to mention the Aeneid, the Divine Comedy, and Paradise Lost.

The same challenge can be issued in regards to the diary of Anne Frank.

And while I'm at it, the same challenge can be issued in regards to the Screwtape Letters.

Prove the Bible wrong, eh, Mujus? That's the rub though, isn't it?

And just to be sporting, I'll let you pick any one of the above non-religious works and allow you to prove why it is wrong (or right). I will take devil's advocate. I suppose you could say, I've been roaming the earth and wandering around on it. Now which of these servants, er, literary works should I consider?

Note: any argument that can be applied against the Bible equally well (such as "the Divine Comedy is wrong because a man wrote it") will not be entertained. Such a "proof" isn't good enough for you, it won't be good enough for me. Fair? ;)

Technically, Job couldn't have been a Christian because he lived before Jesus was born, but the root is the same: Trusting God. Abraham believed God, and it was credited to him as righteousness. And Romans points out that it's all about trusting God as his plan is progressively revealed. So it's still faith in God.

i need clarification. are we debating if there is a supreme being, or whether the hebrew god who helped moses scoop up all those virgins (then divide them up) and kill the rest, for example, exists?

Well yes that is true Mujus but he is considered a christian for lack of a better word and because he bielived in the prophets sent by God

well theresnogodbut me, i must say your username is quite interesting, and we are debating both. They are one and the same. and now that you have my attention on that example mind giving me a source so i can look it up?

1. I respect the right of each person to their own faith. I respect very little about the idea that it's OK for one's faith to stand alone as justification for any decision.

2. Fakers who don't talk about hell, please.

3. No, you won't. Your faith precludes this possibility. You must be untrue to one to live fully within the other. Was or was not the earth created in six days? Pick.

4. Of course you don't have a problem with it. You aren't the one being oppressed.

5. Yeah, not worth it :)

6. Consider away. I have looked into this a bit though. Every time I point out an inconsistency they have the most interesting excuses. I'd love to hear yours (not really). Really, the point you keep hammering on that I need to have read the ENTIRE bible in order to have context for excerpts is quite absurd.

7. No. It doesn't. Ever. See #3. And watch this... http://whywontgodhealamputees.com/video.htm

8-9 *yawn*

10 Good for you on that one. I'm so glad you are able to reconcile the entirely internally consistent Timothy 2:12 with your female teachers of the word of God.

11. Nothing like that, I'm merely pointing out that if you put a million newborns in a million cages and let them live their million lives without ever coming into contact with another person - not a one of them will invent Jesus, much less have him talk to them. I know. the Nazis did research :P

12. I'm sorry to break it to you, but AIDS is by definition a self-propagating disease. It is a fact of life, not a set of sores or deficiencies that can be treated privately and left at the threshold of the home of place of business. So I'm afraid you're going to have to deal with AIDS in the gene pool until you get rid of all the carriers, which has proven to be a very difficult task. Hostility to carriers has often backfired on the repressors, so encouraging acceptance is probably your best bet.


@Mujus You should play some Denis Leary videos for the little ones and maybe let 'em see some T&A. It'll be good for 'em.

And face it, Mujus, you love it when old YJ flames your threads. It's the only time anybody ever looks at them. Look at all this excitement!

I keep looking on YJ's profile wanting to see in the comments: muted by Mujus, language. But sadly, muting doens't do that :-)

I am tempted to mute YJ but then i wouldnt be able to laugh at all his stupid comments ;)

@jeremiahg... numbers 31. the good stuff is highlighted here http://skepticsannotatedbible.com/num/31.html you might also want to check out the brick testaments. it's a good site. it's all gold. here is judges http://www.bricktestament.com/judges/index.html