"Aristotelian Science the underpinning of ancient, classical, and medieval science taught for 2500 years that the universe was infinite and had no beginning point. The bible said the universe began with a blast of light. Science later stated that the Universe began with a blast of light.

Not saying, just saying."

Science has thoroughly modified its stance on the singularity. So what the Bible is saying is not at all what the scientific community is saying.

God said "Let there be light." and there was light.

Science says "There was a big bang and the universe expanded from there". Did not that bang come with a brilliant flash of radiation? Remember, the light was before there were eyes in man or animal to see it. That light from God could have been any form of radiation.

"It's *super*natural. By definition, it is beyond the natural world. What is so hard about accepting there might be something beyond that which your sense and science can percieve. "

That's the usual cop-out the religious try to use, but unfortunately for you the supernaturalists do make claims about what we can see and perceive. These claims are uniformly wrong and yet they still go on acting as if their archaic belief system based on mystical speculation is equally valid with a system which tests claims about the world against reality.

"But the prallel exists that anything can be proven to be something else if we try hard enough. It's like the lies, damn lies, and statistics."

That's the lesson you learn from that example?

Science disproved the inane religious explanation for disease due to rigorous testing and empirical evidence. What that means is that knowledge is acquired through rigorous testing and empirical evidence, not that any speculative account for a phenomenon can eventually be demonstrated and has equal plausibility.

"Science is the search for fact, Religion and philosophy are the search for truth."

The religious are good at coming up slogans. Too bad they can do little more than that.

"But if there is one, then not worshipping him is far worse. I'd rather waste my time than risk eternity somewhere unpleasant."

Fear of torture is all you have to go on to believe in irrational mysticism. What a sad state of affairs. Religion is little more than fear peddling masquerading as insight into the human condition.

Who said torure? Where did I day torture? I didn't. Epic. Fucking. Fail. Unpleasant is separation from God and knowing that you could have been worshiping Him but chose to be stubborn. If he doesn't exist, then I've wated my Sunday mornings but still treated people well. If he does, then I need not worry about my own conscience and having any regrets. If that is torture, it is just self torture.

I'm just curious - you guys *are* aware that every single argument you've both brought forth has been bought forth before, and that not a single Gnostic or agnostic has changed their views because of them?

From Pascal's Wager to the prose of Dawkins, the existence or nonexistence of God / Allah / Vishnu / The Flying Spaghetti Monster are not subject to falsification via logical proceedings.

But feel free to continue the argument. As long as homo sapeins are homo sapiens, humanity will be arguing this until the heat death of the universe.

But you're looking like tards

On the side of fail. Your understanding of what I was saying is flawed.

And Empiricist is someone who believes that all that can exist must be witnessed through our five sense, and the world is in our senses.

It is a very limiting system, and modern science is built entirely around it.

I'll fill in a more complete response later when I have the time. But I may simply ignore large sections were your misinterpretation of what I mean has resulted in a flawed argument.

Science and Philosophy are undeniably bound together, in that both are way of trying to comprehend our world. They should either be taught together as two means to an end. Or both be mandatory in school, but taught separately.

Finally, things like the big bang theory and other forms of creation myth, belong under philosophy. Suggesting otherwise is deluding yourself.

Finally I'm not talking about evolution. Stop trying to bring it up. Unlike the big bang theory it isn't some hocus pocus explanation that serves only to push back the important questions.

@strat - at the risk of accepting I'm a 'tard, you have that right. But be careful about putting his Noodliness in the same category as the other flavors of God. His Noodliness is the one true god and doesn't take kindly to mocking. :-)

Well I can't keep track of your selective invocation and discarding of Christian eschatology. I don't know of any deists who believe in eternal afterlives. And Christian doctrine certainly calls for hellfire and brimstone. What would be "unpleasant" about separation from the god then? Why did this god need to be worshiped? Why did it not recognize the human capacity for reason makes knee jerk belief in such an entity very difficult? Why did it not reveal itself if it was so demanding of adulation?

At any rate it's fear peddling anyway which keeps the religious in line. If not fear of eternal burning then fear of "disappointing" some egomaniacal spirit-being.

'I'm just curious - you guys *are* aware that every single argument you've both brought forth has been bought forth before, and that not a single Gnostic or agnostic has changed their views because of them?'

False.
These arguments have changed some peoples minds. To use the grand old personal anecdote. I used to think religion was entirely bogus. I have sense come to see the worth in it and shifted towards an agnostic way of thinking.

All it requires is an open mind.

Finally just because something is hard, doesn't mean we shouldn't discuss it. After all there is no point in shying away from the difficult questions.

Never said it shouldn't be discussed, I just said it didn't *matter* if it was discussed.

@Putin - while there are plenty of fire-and-brimestone Christians, there are also plenty of sects that are more "eh, if you're a good person you're in with the big Guy". They usually don't stand in front of reporters with signs that say "GOD IS INDIFFERENT TO YOUR

Sexual orientation". Damn phone

"Finally, things like the big bang theory and other forms of creation myth, belong under philosophy. Suggesting otherwise is deluding yourself."

You keep repeating this without providing any substantiation. I guess I shouldn't expect any different, because substantiation is evidently "limiting" our freedom of thought. Why the plethora of peer reviewed journal articles substantiating Big Bang? What about the microwave radiation found by the COBE? What about WMAP? What about the particles that have been confirmed to exist that were predicted by Big Bang Theory? All hocus pocus?

"Finally I'm not talking about evolution. Stop trying to bring it up. Unlike the big bang theory it isn't some hocus pocus explanation that serves only to push back the important questions."

You evidently don't know what ID is getting at then. ID is nothing but an elaborate creationist critique of Darwinian evolution. Read anything these IDers have ever written, it's all about poking holes in Darwinism. If you don't want evolution to be brought up, then stop hawking ID.

"Christian doctrine certainly calls for hellfire and brimstone." - Citation please? Never does it speak of a human being getting cast into the lake of fire. In fact, only Satan- the Beast - gets cast in. Non-believers just die/cease to exist and believers have eternal life. No torture. no hellfire and bromstone (at least not in the Bible). It's misguided folk like the Westboro Baptists who believe that bullshit.

"Never said it shouldn't be discussed, I just said it didn't *matter* if it was discussed."

And what pray tell does matter, Stratagos?

I always love it when random people interject in a thread to declare it a waste of time and insult the participants. Thanks, if you don't care about the thread then don't post in it. Go run along and insult kids with down syndrome or engage in your macho posturing elsewhere.

I have to agree with Putin regarding organized and publicly visible ID. The creationists who are trying to disguise creationism have coopted real ID to make it theirs. Real ID doesn't get touted to the media. It's the idea that God guided evolution through avoiding the billions of combinations that would have failed. The thought is there is no fossil record of a six fingered monkey because God never guided apes to have a sixth finger as it wouldn't have helped enough to make it worth while (just a made up example). But there is a group of ID believers who think evolution is the way in which God worked. Admitedly, most of us aren't ardent believers in Noah's Ark being the whole eorld (it was a localized flood that has been recorded in plenty of other religions and in non-religions as well) or in the idea that God created man witha lump of clay and created woman by taking his rib. Instead, we believe in science and evolution and see God's hand or word or whatever human construct you want shaping it via the laws of nature and some divine intervention.

"Citation please? Never does it speak of a human being getting cast into the lake of fire."

Mathew 13:41-42; I don't know I bother playing this game with you, since no matter how clear and unambiguous it is you'll pull some esoteric non-used "translation" out of thin air which contradicts every other translation of the term.

Revelation 20:15 is explicitly and unambiguously undermines your claim

"Anyone whose name was not found written in the book of life was thrown into the lake of fire."

Luke 16:24

"“The time came when the beggar died and the angels carried him to Abraham’s side. The rich man also died and was buried. 23 In Hades, where he was in torment, he looked up and saw Abraham far away, with Lazarus by his side. 24 So he called to him, ‘Father Abraham, have pity on me and send Lazarus to dip the tip of his finger in water and cool my tongue, because I am in agony in this fire.’"

Mathew 13:41 The Son of man shall send forth his angels, and they shall gather out of his kingdom all things that offend, and them which do iniquity;
13:42 And shall cast them into a furnace of fire: there shall be wailing and gnashing of teeth."

"25:40 And the King shall answer and say unto them, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye have done it unto one of the least of these my brethren, ye have done it unto me.
25:41 Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire"


" No torture. no hellfire and bromstone (at least not in the Bible). It's misguided folk like the Westboro Baptists who believe that bullshit."

Or rather every mainstream Christian sect.

From the Catechism of the Catholic Church:

"1034 Jesus often speaks of "Gehenna" of "the unquenchable fire" reserved for those who to the end of their lives refuse to believe and be converted, where both soul and body can be lost.614 Jesus solemnly proclaims that he "will send his angels, and they will gather . . . all evil doers, and throw them into the furnace of fire,"615 and that he will pronounce the condemnation: "Depart from me, you cursed, into the eternal fire!"616

1035 The teaching of the Church affirms the existence of hell and its eternity. Immediately after death the souls of those who die in a state of mortal sin descend into hell, where they suffer the punishments of hell, "eternal fire."6"

Luke 16 is a prable. You know, a story told to make a point. It is neither factual nor presented as such. I will admit and accept correction that the Revalation reference clearly shows my statement to be wrong as does Matthew.

As far as "every mainstream Christian sect". Is not Lutheranism a mainstream Christian sect? Is not the ELCA the thrid largest body of the Christian church in America mainstream enough for you? Yet we do not teach fire and brimstone. So that *is* patently and *provably* false.

I admitted my flaw. Will you admit yours?

Oh, and Gehenna was a real location (supposedly): a pit outside Jerusalem where the fire continually burned and where the wicked were banished too. But it was not a place of the dead, but of the living who had committed attrocities and were deemed unredeemable.

But I believe we've had the Gehenna discussion before. You just didn't learn from it and insist on returning to it being Hell, which it is not. I should also point out that Gehenna was also the place were suicides bodies were cast in real life. Once again, this is a physical place, not a place of torture for the soul. Unless, of course, one believes the sould stays with the body, but that clearly isn't a Christian teaching.

{Pats Putty's head} You're so precious when you think you have the ability to easier my ire with the sad, sorry excuses for flames you flail around with. Tell mommy that the big people thought you used your words extra special well today!

Raise. Whatever, autocorrect, fuck you too

Oh, and Gehenna is mentioned 11 times in the new testament. I doubt that qualifies as "often".

@Strat - Don't you hate fucking Android?!

Better than Blackberry ;)

I'm starting to wonder. The browser is better and it has apps, but the blackberry just does business so well.

Ok well I will amend my statement and say that *nearly* every mainstream Christian sect upholds hell as a place where eternal torment of the damned takes place. Certainly the Catholics and Baptist conventions believe this, as does Church of Christ, Westminster Confession and numerous other evangelical groups. Also one of the larger Lutheran groups (Wels) certainly abides by the "hell as eternal torment" doctrine.

http://www.eauk.org/theology/acute/upload/THE%20NATURE%20OF%20HELL%20Concusions%20&%20recommendations%20(final).pdf

"You're so precious when you think you have the ability to easier my ire with the sad, sorry excuses for flames you flail around with. Tell mommy that the big people thought you used your words extra special well today!"

I don't care about your "ire". You're an irrelevant nudge. You have some weird animus towards the developmentally challenged. You were probably that bully in school who liked to trip kids with prosthetic legs, thinking you were hilarious whenever else thought you were a grade-A asshole.

"You just didn't learn from it and insist on returning to it being Hell, which it is not."

Your view is out of step with much of the rest of the Christian world, so don't pretend like you're speaking for all Christians on that question.

WELS is that big? It has only 1200 congregations to more than 8 times that in the ELCA (>10,000). But OK, if you say it is big. LOL! But the amendment is sufficient enough. Yes, the general conservative Christian sects (I hesitate to use evangelical because that has nothing to do with it) are fire and brimstone churches. But most the folks I know from, for instance, the southern Baptist churches don't actually bnelieve in hell. they accept that Jesus tore open the gates of hell and that his not being willing that any should perish means no one can unless they are determined to and directly tell God to go get bent.