Well, it's still a cool name, Rommel...and while it's maybe my stigma that I associate the man with Nazism even in the slightest because he did, after all, fight for the Nazis--he could have resigned his commision and fled the country if he didn't believe in some aspect of Hitler's New World Order, yes--I will certainly concede that at least it's not a black and white issue, he certainly doesn't seem to have a Mengele-esque stench of evil about him...perhaps he was really a good man on the wrong side, after all, dunno...

@Riphen:

I dunno, I didn't know what to put for you, to be honest, and I figured nearly everyone here had had a God debate on-site at some point, we have them so often...

Alright, I got this...
In order of my respect:

King Atom: The ubermensch destined to become your overlord. A great and superior being who appreciates math and writes all kinds of things: novels, movie/TV scripts, video game designs, songs/symphonies, and poetry. He also remains a great musician who is more conservative than "Conservative Man." He also stinks at WebDiplomacy.
Conservative Man: At least he's a Christian
Rommeltastic: {Insert period joke}
President Eden: Probably one hell of a good player
obiwanobiwan: Wow, fifth.
goldfinger0303: For some reason, sixth.
Fasces349: Seems you have your priorities straight
ulytau: I am indifferent
PSMongoose: That just doesn't make any sense
Riphen: Resent resides in your name
krellin: Grrrrrrrrr...
Thucydides: Just some Australian chick.
SantaClausowitz: I'm pretty sure I hate you.
Dan-i-am 88: I've got no problems with you...
pjmansfield99: I just don't like your name
fortknox: Your name just infuriates me

(Huh...Putin hasn't been on since Saturday...anyone know where he is, or if we can contact him...it'd suck if we got to 16 and couldn't star because he never came...though I suppose we could always get an alternate if it came to that.)

>ubermensch
>Christian
>wat

"And I know Rommel was a tank commander...I was referencing his fighting in WWII on the Nazi side, but fair enough, he WAS relatively humane, it would seem, especially amongst his contemporaries (though that isn't saying much when your side is slaughtering millions of innocents...)"
Relatively humane?
Try having Churchill give a speech to commemorate his death, try having his Afrika Corps being the only corps in the entire Axis powers to not be convicted of war crimes. Try releasing Jewish and Brittish prisoners during the height of the battle of Africa, to prevent German reinforcements from killing them. Try to follow victory or death orders from Hitler when being out numbered 21-1 and surviving for almost a month under those conditions. Try attempting to assassinate Adolf Hitler and being forced to commit suicide as a result.

Rommel was a patriotic German, he fought for Germany, not for the Nazi's. He was one of the most honourable and smartest generals in history and both the Americans and the English following the war admitted that.

"In the sombre wars of modern democracy, there is little place for chivalry."
-Winston Churchill (on Rommel's death)

To say he was a nazi simply because he was German Soldier is pure ignorance and unrightly uses his name.

XD

...

Well, King Atom...your list was interesting, gotta give you that...

also lmao @ Thucydides being an Australian chick

+1 Eden

Yeah, this is going to be a great game.

Who wants to bet 10 that I'll be out first?

Nah, I'm going to go all out on the lat person to bug me in the threads. We're allowed metagaming this, right? That'll make it so much more fun.

"I don't view them as the same thing, I just don't see them as incompatible...I think you CAN have a merit-based Republic"
As long as their are idiots voting they can not be related.

"I DO assume that all are capable of base decisions, but as I've stated before, that does NOT mean I think the average citizen has the right to make decisions for a specialized field, ie, doctors,lawmakers, and those adequately educated in medicine should vote for medical bills alone"
That is why your not elitist...

"You are the more extreme elitist of the two of us; I'm more moderate and classical of the two of us, you are certainly more extreme and the one with a more radical approach"
I am the one with the actual elistic approach, yours is far from classic, yours is a left wing moderate version of it. mine is the classic approach, since I take elitism for what it is.

"I have elitist ideals--the difference is I also see it logically and ethically fit to include democratic safeguards into the system, whereas you want to ru ne without them"
It is not logical to have a democracy, look at the current situation in America's congress as proof.

As I have said many times before PROgress is the opposite of CONgress

Please no meta gaming.....cause I fucking hate you...and I dont want to have to kill you in this game.

But seriously I no meta gaming.

@Fasces:

I'll admit that I AM coming at this with a natural bias...again, I still say if he really didn't sympathize with any portion of Nazism at all, he could of fled...and your statement that he tried to assasinate Hitler makes it sound to me like maybe he, like other Germans during the Reich--Heidegger, notably--honestly thought Hitler would help Germany on a national level recover, and never could have guessed or dreamed how dark a pit the whole mess would lead, and maybe wouldn't have done what they did if they had known...

I'm just saying the man was complex, and its challenging matter deciding which way to lean, and due to the side of the war he was on, I, admittedly, might be biased into leaning one way when logic and the facts suggest another way.

But, again, he was a "Clean" General, and fought a clean war, and didn't kill Jews or torture prisoners, so yes, he's not an "evil" person.

I'm ust saying he was no white night, either.

"fortknox: Your name just infuriates me"
Fortknox is a moderator, you should put our overlords at the top, not bottom of the list.

I am not* meta gaming.

ROMMEL WAS EXECUTED FOR ATTEMPTING AN ASSASSINATION ON HITLERS LIFE HOW MUCH MORE ANTI-HITLER CAN YOU GET?????

HE WAS A GERMAN PATRIOT WHO SERVED IN THE GERMAN ARMY FROM 1910 ON, HE THOUGHT IT WOULD BE UNHONOURABLE TO ABANDON HIS COUNTRY IN ITS TIME OF NEED AND THAT IS WHY HE STAYED. HE WAS THE MOST HONOURABLE GENERAL IN THE WAR. WINSTON CHURCHILL SAID THAT!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!


You once again assuming that because he was an officer for the Germans, which happened to become a nazi regime near the end of his career and deciding his value based on his refusal to disregard orders during that regime sickens me.

Do you not know the definition of honour?

I see people who worship the mods as fools. Just because they can do what they want, doesn't mean they're superior or anything.

@Fasces:

"As long as their are idiots voting they can not be related."

First, careful who you call an idiot when you use the wrong THERE...

And calling them "idiots" is vague, unsustained, and unhelpful.

Different people have different skill sets; some of those skill sets are perhaps more elite and suited to power than others, but that doesn't make those with the other skill sets "idiots" de facto.

""I DO assume that all are capable of base decisions, but as I've stated before, that does NOT mean I think the average citizen has the right to make decisions for a specialized field, ie, doctors,lawmakers, and those adequately educated in medicine should vote for medical bills alone"
That is why your not elitist..."

I'm not an elitist because I believe only those who are elite/are trained in the field should be allowed to vote on said field?

"As I have said many times before PROgress is the opposite of CONgress"

A nice slogan and empty rhetoric, but as you haven't defined what you mean by "progress," and how to attain that, it can only be empty in that little soundbite.

You know, Fasces, I like "The West Wing." GREAT TV drama, one of the best of all-time, it won 27 Emmys, you should try it, you'll like it, it's noted for it's tight writing, great accuracy, and sharp coverage of the political landscape.

On the show, for a Presidential Debate, President Bartlet (played by the always-awesome Martin Sheen) is debating Governor Ritchie for the Presidency.

Ritchie gives a nice slogan answer to a question.
Bartlet says "That's a nice slogan...now tell me HOW. You've given me the first ten words...what's after THAT?"

All Ritchie--and you--have are slogans.

Actually, Fasces, he refused the assassination plot. He said that if it came to pass, that people would say that Germany lost the war because of DISHONOUR. It's a paradox that his honour stopped him from doing the honourable thing.

Rommel was executed because he KNEW of the plot, and had agreed to take a high-office if Hitler was murdered.

@Riphen:

Then don't metagame...this is an admitted grudge-match, so people ARE coming into this with known grudges and scores to settle...

But just play the game clean, or however you want to play it, and all will be well.

I guess you all don't realize...

The Nazis kicked ass (and still should).

"First, careful who you call an idiot when you use the wrong THERE..."
+1

"Different people have different skill sets; some of those skill sets are perhaps more elite and suited to power than others, but that doesn't make those with the other skill sets "idiots" de facto."
That is correct, however can you agree that most people don't have the experience, or knowledge to know how a position of power should be run?

"I'm not an elitist because I believe only those who are elite/are trained in the field should be allowed to vote on said field?"
You are not elitist because you assume anyone can become elite. Some people have inferior genetics to others and therefore can't become one of the elitist roles in life. Your refusal to admit this separates you from elitist as you are still convinced a good education and hard work can get you anywhere.

"A nice slogan and empty rhetoric, but as you haven't defined what you mean by "progress," and how to attain that, it can only be empty in that little soundbite."
Look at capital hill, you can't say progress happens there. Can you admit that an advantage of a 1 party state is that laws can be passed quickly and efficiently?

"You know, Fasces, I like "The West Wing." GREAT TV drama, one of the best of all-time, it won 27 Emmys, you should try it, you'll like it, it's noted for it's tight writing, great accuracy, and sharp coverage of the political landscape."
Streaming episode one as I type.

"Actually, Fasces, he refused the assassination plot. He said that if it came to pass, that people would say that Germany lost the war because of DISHONOUR. It's a paradox that his honour stopped him from doing the honourable thing.

Rommel was executed because he KNEW of the plot, and had agreed to take a high-office if Hitler was murdered."
I stand corrected

Well, at least obi is giving out the right password now.

LOL...true...hey, both sayings are used in the play...

I still think Rommel was one of the great generals of the war, but I doubt that he was the only one without honor, or who did great against terrible odds.

I believe Marshall von Rundstedt should be up there with Rommel, but below him. Rundstedt did great in the early war, with the capture of Kiev, bit I want him up there with the sane, non-Nazi generals because 1) He went against Hitler in continuing Operation Barbarossa into the winter 2) After the Allied invasion, he told Hitler, who asked him how to stop the Allies "End the war, you fool!" 3) Given just one week in September when the Allies paused to rest and regroup, he created a defensive line that largely held until February. But he should be below Rommel because 1) He didn't do shit to fortify the French beaches and 2) He didn't follow Rommel's advice and place tank divisions just inshore from the Normandy beaches

"1) He didn't do shit to fortify the French beaches and 2) He didn't follow Rommel's advice and place tank divisions just inshore from the Normandy beaches "

- which is a pretty smart thing if you want germany and its people occupied by the west, instead of the lovely russians. Do you know what the russians did to the first german town they captured?

Plus, if the tanks had been placed near the beaches they would have been shelled and bombed into the next world quicker than you can say scheiße.

I agree that's smart in hindsight, but that's saying he was a defeatist in early 1943, which I think is an incorrect assessment.

I don't know what they did to the first German town though. I assume it was gruesome.

And I didn't clarify, my apologies. Rommel wanted them just out of bombardment range oh the ships. That way they didn't have to move to counter the attacks and thus expose themselves to airplane attacks.

I must have been pretty far down the "shit-talking regulars" list, lol. Glad to be a part of this, though.