This is why it's misleading to say "oh you shouldn't call people Nazis and fascists, there's nobody around who holds actual Nazi or fascist views, even on the alt-right.

If you think that, you're wrong.

We have actual fascists and Nazis on this forum. Donald Trump's supporters include fascists, racists, and neo-Nazis. Trump himself has described neo-Nazis as "fine people".

They walk among us and currently feel enabled and legitimised, more so than at any point in the previous 50 or 60 years.

A few weeks before Xmas there was a neo-Nazi march in Durham where I live. About 40-50 actual neo-Nazis. Several of them had swastika tattoos and their banners had Nazi and fascist symbols. They openly gave sieg-heil salutes.

These people are real. They exist. They are on the side of Croak and ND and probably PE as well as he's a self-described fascist.

They are the enemy of reasonable, progressive people. We must stand up and resist Nazis, fascists, and ethnic nationalists wherever they are found.

@jamiet

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/DRgwFBBWkAMycjb.jpg:large

1. nice anecdote

2. not they're not on the "same side" there is just some overlap. the radical stuff is where the difference (and the bad part) occurs quite often

3. Nazis were national socialists. they had socialized healthcare and massive tax schemes with large scale government intrusion. it was less than compared to the Weimar Republic, but was NOT free market. no it wasn't pure socialism, but it was CLOSER to that than it was to libertarianism

4. they are AN enemy. stop trying to create a binary, a LOT of people hate parts of the progressive ideology.

5. It'd be easier to stand up against Nazis, fascists, and ethno-nationalists if you stopped demonizing everyone outside of your bubble.

6. ethno-nationlist needs to be more easily defined. I'm fine with Israel, the Jews on several occasions have nearly been eradicated, and if they want a small state of sanctuary then I'm fine with that.

7. Yes, the isreal Palestine conflict is more complex than that, and I do disagree with Israeli policy of building more settlements in the West Bank, but Palestine INCLUDING the land held in the Gaza has much more work to do. the authority still holds way too many terrorist connections, and ever since HAMAS started firing rockets into Israeli territory (not even aiming for soft/hard targets) trying to provoke a retaliation that would kill their own children... that kind of tactic loses my respect in a big way.

@jamiet

furthermore, please back up all of your claims with evidence. I want direct quotes and/or links to the places where people said these things.

if you do not provide evidence, then you are a depraved human being for slandering someone with the label of Nazi without any evidence.

A few months back, Ogion called me a Nazi. He did so with no evidence, but continued to do it. THIS is why fewer and fewer people care when you claim someone is a Nazi: you exaggerate:








http://www.webdiplomacy.net/forum.php?threadID=1501079&page-thread=1#threadPager

Our argument culminated when he claimed the following:

"Just how many corpses do you need to see James before you admit that white supremacists are violent and people have damn good reason to take precautions when white supremacists gather?

That is who you are defending when you claim there is no evidence of violence. No evidence of you willfully ignore it maybe. 

And why might you do that?”

The most disparaging part of this was the following line:

“That is who you are defending when you claim there is no evidence of violence.”

This is a direct slander against me and misrepresentation of my views. The differing of opinion I have no problem with, but this is character assassination.



While it is usually the person who makes the claim to source responsibly, he has forced me into an awkward situation, as he is now making these claims en masse, despite my pleas for him to source me. Furthermore, now any new members on the forum who are just jumping into a thread are being confronted with blatant lies, and slander against me.

While it is much more difficult to prove a positive statement as false as I’d have to prove that every one of my posts were entirely vindicated, I can provide a thorough bought of evidence that I have said the exact opposite

Within that thread I posted the following comments, acknowledging to various extents that there was in fact violence on the far right, to varying degrees:




Page 2, 13th post down:

“And if the Antifa had been protesting their peacefully, and the white supremacists were the ones who incited the violence then I'd be backing the peaceful protestors. The problem is the videos coming out of Charlottesville show two belligerent groups colliding with one another, and I've seen some where the antifa crowd clearly starts throwing things first and where on guy throws something on fire at the white supremacists, and I saw one where the white supremacists started hitting people with clubs”

“I can agree however that the white supremacists were the ones with the murderer which is a whole other level of wrong”


Page 2. 25th post down:

“i can't tell whether or not you said never or ever... so i can't really respond to this. violence can be justified in self defense. some of the antifa probably were acting in self defense. some of the alt right probably were acting in self defense. but a WHOLE LOT on each side were willfully entering into violence.”

“the alt-right aren't the ONLY ones STARTING violence.”

Page 3, 5 posts down:

“PLEASE PLEASE PLEASE: i never sympathized with the neonazis. i ask ANYONE HERE to find a quote of me doing so. seriously. it hasn't happened.”

Page 3, 18 posts down:

“i only ever said that both sides instigated violence against one another, at some point or another. i never said "one side NEVER attacked the others." or anything of the sort

GIVE ME ONE QUOTE OGION ONE QUOTE”

“and the neonazis and alt right and antifa and blm both engaged in violence, and one neonazi killed a protestor.”

“no the neonazis were not in the right. no violence was not good. and no the violence was not necessary at some rally were nothing the white nationalists said had any direct legal or economic effect on the antifa/blm/other protestors!”

“our analogy to old Britain fell apart and you know it, but i KNOW the KKK is bad, but being violent towards them makes it WORSE.”

Page 3, 20 posts down:

“No, also not true. i fully admitted they came armed and i even addressed the fact that they started some of the fights.

i even gave you a specific video earlier back with raw footage of the fights, and mentioned how a guy with a confederate flag was an aggressor”



Here are 10 separate quotes verifiably demonstrating that throughout the entirety of the thread i have been entirely consistent in my portrayal of the right as having a violent element. Despite me presenting these quotes to Ogion, he would not respond directly to them.





Interactions on Sunday with Ogion also came to such a breaking point, where I directly told him that if he did not correct a blatant lie he attributed to me, I would contact the mods

http://www.webdiplomacy.net/forum.php?threadID=1500299&page-thread=6#threadPager

My post is at the top of page 6, and his response is a few posts below. He apologized and said he misattributed Brainbomb’s quote to me (cold comfort for me, and I’m glad I caught it) although Brainbomb would also go on to say he was being misrepresented.

Then on Page 7, 17 posts down in that thread, Ogion posted another claim

“And you haven't said shot to condemn the neonazis and their conduct. Not even slightly surprised at that.”

I refuted this directly with multiple quotes a few lines later:
——————
“ in my 1st post responding to you about this:

"I agree with you objectively here that this is a horrifying act"

and because you've equated Trump with white supremacism, how about THIS:

"also nah he is a piece of shit. but no regular shit, it's the type where you have been riding in a car all day and needed to go, and you had burritos earlier at the restaurant attached to the gas station that smelled funny, and you really can't hold it and then you spot some nasty old outhouse (probably crocodile infested) in some random ass field and you go in, your ass is on fire for a good 15 minutes, and then you walk bow legged back to your car, get in, turn the ignition on, and then 12 months later the damn thing is being sworn into office"

on page 1???


or how about THIS:

"and i'm not "covering" for neonazis. i've had that accusation thrown at me, and it doesn't stick to well to someone who's Polish. I DESPISE neonazis, and i despise HYPOCRISY. you're guilty of the latter. you don't see the violence on your own side because you choose to be blind."

on page 5???

or later in that same post:

"he far right nut jobs are not innocent, and should be held accountable,” ”
——————

Three posts later Ogion begins his post with this:

“Nice try James. You've shown yourself already to be a homophobe and now you're doing a fantastic job of covering for your neonazi buddies. That's not a lie, it's the reality”

with no sourcing or quotes, and then proceeded to post this:

“James, what people can read is your endless deflection after a token statement. You show you're true colors when you equate a movement to address police brutality with genocidal neo Nazis, when you equate a black president talking about the murders of black people as the same as a president who is completely silent about Nazis. As Peter Wiggins pointed out, you may be a socially acceptable white supremacists, but you're still a white supremacist at heart.”

with once again, no sourcing or quotes for any of his claims.

Thankfully, TrPrado, a friend of mine caught this and got me back onto the thread (which I had earlier intended to abandon).

I decided not to contact the moderators, and was going to give Ogion a third chance. This last conversation I also demanded he answer for what he claimed about me.

he responded in his final sentence with


“I’m done, because I don't respond to gosh gallop from Nazi sympathizers”


as a part of a longer tirade against me.

accusing me of being a Nazi sympathizer isn’t something I take likely, and such an unfounded claim is all the more upsetting. anyone viewing the thread is now forced to go back and do rigorous research to determine what the truth is.

But it’s more than that.

This is not a disagreement about mathematics, where one person is arguing for 1+1=2 and the other 1+1=3

The argument is about a person’s character and their views, rather than simply reality. Both of these factors combined have forced me to eat up a lot of my time: if i do not respond, it could easily appear as an admission of defeat, but the more I ask for him to quote me on specific things I’ve said, I’ve been met with more and more slander.

I have the link to my profile on WebDiplomacy.net on several of my social media platforms, and I am always recommending it to friends. If an employer or professor were to do even a cursory amount of research on me and find my profile with Ogion’s comments about me on the Forum, this could have serious consequences on my life outside of this website. I am not afraid of letting my profile and personality be public, but to have my character demeaned in this way is dangerous. Due to this, I am in a position where I must continue to repeat a singular consistent fact about what I have said - not even an opinion or a formal argument -  and I am forced into simply re-quoting myself over and over desperately hoping the blatant non-truths will stop.

This is the third time he has either deliberately or in willful ignorance misrepresented me, despite me providing direct evidence to counter his claims.

This is not matter of conflicting opinions, this is a matter of pure unadulterated misrepresentation.


I emailed the mods with regards to all of this, but they allowed this kind of blatant misrepresentation to continue. So you can continue to make these claims @Jamiet, but you BETTER have evidence

Here is evidence that the neo-Nazi march in Durham was going to happen:

https://www.google.co.uk/amp/s/thetab.com/uk/durham/2017/11/22/far-right-extremist-groups-are-going-to-hold-an-islamophobic-protest-in-durham-on-saturday-38073/amp

It was well policed with little follow-up media coverage but I can assure you it did take place as I described because I was there

@ JamesYanick
You seem to think I called *you* a Nazi. I did not. Croak described himself as a Nazi and PE is a self professed fascist. Are you their attorney? Let them defend themselves.

So kind of you to add your bullshit to the thread, Yanik.

@jamiet

1. your link doesn't dispute my argument: that's an anecdote, and doesn't address the overall size of these movements. I didn't ask for evidence on THAT one, but thanks anyways

2. I KNOW you didn't call ME a Nazi, but I won't allow you to call other people Nazis without evidence.

3. If Croak did call himself a Nazi, then you should be able to find a quote, or PM him and get him to come here and say it. I won't accept unverified accounts.

4. Hahaha no thanks, I'll attack bad arguments when I see them. you need to provide evidence of these quotes. I someone started attacking muslims online with ZERO evidence, you'd rush to their defense, wouldn't you?


@ghug

you mean well sourced evidence? um, you're welcome

@ghug

seriously, what the hell did I post that was "bullshit"???

asking Jamiet to provide evidence for his claims? Showing how these wide-spread attacks can harm your own reputation? honestly man do you actually read anything I say or just attack without aim?

I'm on my phone and the current forum doesn't have a search facility. Calm down, James.

@Jamiet

so because it's TOO DIFFICULT to prove your claims that someone is a Nazi, that just makes it alright?

no thanks.

I save links, i put them down on notes for reference later on. just because you're being lazy with this, doesn't mean you're allowed a pass on providing basic evidence

Uhh.. James, I don't actually care what you think.

I know that Croak is a Nazi and has admitted it. That's enough for me.

I know that Nazis marched in my town because I was there. I saw them at first hand.

The rise of neo-Nazism and fascism, hand in hand with the rise of Trump and Milo and the alt-right, is a serious issue which should concern rational and progressive people. I don't need to persuade you personally. You're not important or special enough. Stop acting like you are

hail victory!

@Jamiet

if that's good enough for you then fine. but posting it on the forum and trying to convince other people of it.

no.

you need evidence.

I'm not saying I'm special

I'm saying you're VERY bad at all this

James, this is a thread for Nazis to post in, and you are posting in it a lot.

Maybe you are bad at this.

@civwarbuff:

Dude. Reagan raised taxes 11 times after he cut them because his administration realized they fucked up by spiking budget deficits during his first term. Conveniently, you talk about how he cut domestic programs. Yeah, just like Republicans to fuck over Americans writ large while funneling cash into the military industrial complex.

And yeah, Dubya cut taxes and led us into war without paying for it. The first time in American history. We will be paying for his foolish and terrible mistakes for generations to come.

"Deficits fell and then the great recession happened and then they went up again." WTF? We had been at war for 5 years by then and Americans were becoming fatigued by it. Hell we STILL have troops overseas 15 years after the fact. Russians laugh at us every day for the folly of our Republican presidents. Why do you think Putin wanted Trump in office so badly?

@Jamiet

now you're being glib and trying to deflect from the initial fact that you're calling people things without evidence.

You keep notes on the webDip forum?

Okay, a few things.

1. I am not a Nazi or any variation of it. Also, a cultural nazi is not an actual thing.

2. I find Nazis deplorable and evil, just as evil as Marxists and their Cult of Communism which led to the deaths of hundreds of millions of people around the world.

3. Jamie is an actual Marxist.

Ok ND two things:

1. I am an actual Marxist yes. No apologies for that.

2. You keep calling people "cultural Marxists" which is not a real thing, and which as I have repeatedly explained, with evidence, is a made up slur used by Nazis and neo-Nazis to paint all of their opponents as being part of a jewish-communist conspiracy.

@Jamiet

cultural marxism refers to the influx of collectivist ideology into academia, such as the Frankfurt school, and the continued influence of basic far-left thought in academia, as well as parts of the media and entertainment industry.

it is not some nazi smear, it's pretty much just a point of view on the development of the sections of American culture.

and yes, there is a liberal bias in Hollywood as well as the media on aggregate, and especially in academia you can find many professors who openly supported the Soviet Union in colleges

it's not some massive widespread web where every is coordinating a conspiracy, but to some extent, it does exist.

@ghug

yeah but my old computer had to get a massive restoration of files on it so my note's tab got wiped, but I'm rebuilding it. this forum has no lack of lunacy

Oh James I love it when you explain things to me.

@Jamiet, as many people have told you (see above for another) cultural marxism is a thing. There is no such thing as cultural nazi/fascism. Grow up.

You also are stating you part of a movement that was responsible for the deaths of hundreds of millions of people. That's just downright sick.

Capitalism kills people every day.

"Capitalism kills people every day"

Nope. Shitty people kill people every day sometimes they do this via capitalism, sometimes by socialism, or all sorts of other systems.

The great thing about capitalism is that it does nothing to stop good people being good people. Many other systems can't make such a boast.

My phone garbled that slightly, but you get the idea

Marxism/communism are political/economic theories that enable the state to commit mass murder. Capitalism is just a economic theory with variants.