"But claim to love freedom."

You've never met a war you didn't like. You want every country that doesn't kowtow to America wiped off from the map. You want countries bombed and in ruins and call that 'freedom'. You adore neo-Nazis while exploiting Jewish suffering to justify your support for aggression, war, death and destruction.

"Which is Dictator-ese for a protest ban."

You really are a compulsive liar, aren't you?

So lets talk about how Israel isn't just targeting Hamas but is openly applying a policy of collective punishment on all Gazans.

Here's some sources:

http://www.nytimes.com/2014/07/22/world/middleeast/questions-about-tactics-and-targets-as-civilian-toll-climbs-in-israeli-strikes.html?partner=rss&emc=rss&smid=tw-nytimes&_r=0

This story was passed over earlier:

"On Monday night, a strike hit an eight-story apartment building in downtown Gaza City —*** an area where Israeli officials had urged Gazans to take shelter***. The building collapsed as rescue crews were inside, killing more people. The death toll, at least 13, was still being tallied."

http://news.yahoo.com/un-school-sheltering-gaza-displaced-hit-israel-shells-170242373.html;_ylt=AwrBEiJ8ms5Tpz4ALjvQtDMD

The official said a team, ***with Israeli clearance***, was at the school run by the UN agency for Palestinian refugees UNRWA in Al-Maghazi when Israeli tank shelling resumed, hitting the building on Tuesday afternoon.

http://www.thelancet.com/gaza-letter-2014
http://download.thelancet.com/flatcontentassets/pdfs/S0140673614610448.pdf

An open letter from a group of doctors condemning Israeli's unwanton aggression against innocents. These people alone know more than anyone in this thread and they are unequivocally against this campaign.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/world/middle_east/in-west-bank-israel-revives-home-demolitions-to-stop-hamas/2014/07/22/c8197236-1dd7-4874-a3eb-f9438065644f_story.html?

The punishment isn't contained to Gaza. Here, RELATIVES of Hamas living in the WEST BANK have their homes destroyed for no reason. No rockets come from West Bank. How does anyone justify this?

http://www.fairobserver.com/region/middle_east_north_africa/idf-veterans-its-mostly-punishment-part-1-2/

And you honestly don't have to take my word for it. Here are the words of a number of former IDF soldiers on what being a part of an Israeli ground campaign is like.

"It’s mostly punishment. I hate that: “They did this to us, so we’ll do that to them.” Do you know what a naval blockade means for the people in Gaza? There’s no food for a few days. For example, suppose there’s an attack in Netanya, so they impose a naval blockade for four days on the entire Strip. No seagoing vessel can leave. A Dabur patrol boat is stationed at the entrance to the port, if they try to go out, within seconds the soldiers shoot at the bow and even deploy attack helicopters to scare them. "

"During the operations in Gaza, anyone walking around in the street, you shoot at the torso. In one operation in the Philadelphi corridor, anyone walking around at night, you shoot at the torso."

"They shot anyone walking around in the street. It always ended with, “We killed six terrorists today.” Whoever you shot in the street is “a terrorist.”"




http://www.canada.com/news/Israel+bombs+mosques+fishing+boats+farms+Gaza/10050530/story.html

Israel burns farms and fishing boats, vital instruments in feeding Gazans, which obviously contained massive Hamas stockpiles right?

From the previous link in connection to this

"Seventy percent of Gaza lives on fishing — they have no other choice. For them it means not eating. There are whole families who don’t eat for a few days because of the blockade. They eat bread and water."


No matter if you think Hamas is bad or not, Israel is not just targeting Hamas and their weapons. They are attacking all Gazans to keep them in fear and to punish them for something they have no hand in. The ones largely impacted by this are innocent women and children. There is simply no justification for it.

I'm mainly wading into this because people tend to attack Putin himself more than his views or evidence. There's a lot not being said here because it can easier to dismiss someone like Putin than it is to face the reality of the situation.

It's also amusing to find people like Obi abandoning the other thread to come here and spend their time attacking easier targets than manning up and facing the problems with his own views

krellin's being silenced again? Fuck off, do we all need to be nice little kids and say nothing but good praises?

Lol...are you pretty sure those are the only two options?

I never noticed but FineRedMist has played 0 games? Who the hell is he?

I think the expectation is that you contribute to a thread instead of being all white noise, which krellin is in spades

I haven't abandoned the thread...I just have a lot of posts to catch up on. :p

Hamas DID tell people to stay in their homes, by the way, we haven't touched on that...

They want their civilians safe, but tell them to STAY in a combat zone? Hm.

"I'm mainly wading into this because people tend to attack Putin himself more than his views or evidence."

Other than thinking he's a smug prick, I've said nothing as to Putin's character...

But his views?

He supports Stalin, Putin, Hamas, the Kims, Assad, and a plethora of dictators around the world.

I take issue with that. I'm sorry, Chairman.

It'd be a bit like him coming here and declaring that he had a love for the KKK--

I hold those whom backs against him, because they're disgusting, disgusting people and regimes.

If he doesn't want to have that held against him...perhaps he shouldn't back them.

If someone came up to you and said that they support the KKK, you'd be hard-pressed to separate the man from his views in that situation.

If I'm going to be called into question for backing Israel, I sure as hell will call him into question for backing those disgusting regimes.

Obi as usual doesn't respond to a single argument being made. Just the usual rigamarole of shouting Stalin and North Korea. It's like his daily cleanse at this point.

When you give me something that good, I'm going to use it.

I am amazed anyone takes you seriously when you talk about peace when you back that sheer amount of brutal dictators AND say Conquest is Peace.

Welcome to the Internet, where everything is eternal and held against you forever, and everything is mocked and turned into a meme.

Which is why it gives me great pride to be able to say...

YOU DON'T KNOW SHIT ABOUT GAZA--THEY EAT KABOBS DOWN THERE!

"I take issue with that."

Just not Neo-Nazis in Ukraine, Islamist crucifiers in Syria and Libya, or Israelis massacring children.

Glad you have your priorities in order.

"When you give me something that good, I'm going to use it."

And when you don't have any arguments, you're going to cling like a coward to whatever you cling onto and hope people will be distracted from your pathetic cowardice.

@Obi

"Hamas DID tell people to stay in their homes, by the way, we haven't touched on that...

They want their civilians safe, but tell them to STAY in a combat zone? Hm."

they may have told them, but there's largely no evidence people are complying. People want to live, even if they are Palestinians.

http://www.theguardian.com/world/2014/jul/22/gaza-displaced-palestinians-not-safe

"In the first days of the conflict, the Hamas-run ministry of interior issued a statement urging people near the border – who had been told in Israeli leaflet-drops, text messages and phone calls to evacuate – that they should remain in their homes, dismissing the messages as "psychological warfare".

In the past week, the Guardian has seen large numbers of people fleeing different neighbourhoods – including Beit Lahia, Beit Hanoun, Shujai'iya, Zeitoun and Maghazy – and no evidence that Hamas had compelled them to stay.."

"Other than thinking he's a smug prick, I've said nothing as to Putin's character..."

These are your posts from the last page dude
"LIES, LIES ALL LIES, YOU WESTERN FASCIST CAPITALIST PIG CHAQA, YOU!

UNITED FOREVER...IN FRIENDSHIP AND LABOR...
LONG AS YOU'RE NOT JEWISH, DISSENTING OR GAAAAAAAY...

SING IT WITH ME, PUTIN!"

"(Seriously, if you're actually expecting Putin to admit he loves brutal oppressive dictatorships and loathes Western democracies...come on...***the guy's got a hard-on for fucking Stalin***...heck, if Putin actually DID start murdering millions ***he'd probably send flowers***"

Pretty solid takes on his character.

And yes, could you please respond to my views and my comments for once instead of going after the easy target? What do you have to say about my post obi?

@ obiwan: I'd like to see your response to the news that Israel has been bombing the very places it told Gazans to evacuate to for safety.

Do you agree with the UN that Israel is committing war crimes?

Chaqa: I never noticed but FineRedMist has played 0 games? Who the hell is he?

Can anyone help Chaqa understand how the system can show that I've "played 0 games" when that's not the case? Or help me understand why my identity is so important to these guys when trying to figure out how they should behave around other adults?

No, nobody can help him understand. It's a lost cause.

Just seems odd that someone would join and become immediately so involved and fanatical in the forum, without playing a game (although the missing 10 suggest you have joined one).

@Chairman:

Honestly, Chairman, I don't know what else I really can say in response...

I mean, I've posted literally hundreds of posts on this (between the threads you've seen and ones previous to it in the last couple weeks) and you and I can't even agree on the very basics of things...and I haven't convinced you and you haven't convinced me, so I think we're just at a long-post impasse. I mean, at this point, I feel like you're restating more or less the same principle ideas, as am I...and that's just beating a couple of dead horses at this point.

We had a good exchange, and you seem like a nice guy, so I respect your efforts (unlike someone else, for whom I have absolutely no respect, and that's rather evident at this point, I think) but I don't think I can really respond to the latest round in a productive way...even I have my limits as to just how long I can make the same arguments, and while I really do appreciate the lengths you went to try and persuade me, on most of the core points, we're still miles and miles apart, and we again can't even agree on the basics here, so I just don't see the point of my wasting your time and mine on posting the same response again.

Everyone else can herald that as my losing if they wish...frankly, at this point, I HAVE posted hundreds and hundreds of posts on this--and I seriously doubt anyone wants more from me, and I certainly don't...at least not until a new development happens for us to explore.

So, sorry, but for now, at least, The Rest is Silence.

@Jamiet:

"I'd like to see your response to the news that Israel has been bombing the very places it told Gazans to evacuate to for safety."

I have two responses to that--

1. I'd have to see exactly what sites they bombed, when, how, and go through all that before determining if it was unfair or not, since the UN also told Gazans to go to their schools for shelters, and two UN schools were found with rocket caches this week...so if the UN is telling them to go their for safety while there are (to the UN's knowledge or not) rockets there, I think that's a complex situation, frankly.

2. As I just stated--some of those zones that were supposed to be safe have been found with weapons caches or have terror targets springing up nearby...and Hamas told people NOT to evacuate at all. They told them to stay put in their homes, that evacuating was an Israeli trick. How culpable should they be, for telling their own citizens to essentially stay in their homes, and thus on the front lines of this war, while hiding weapons or firing weapons from designated safe zones? Israel may have bombed safe zones, but I think that context needs to be taken into account, too...when you place rockets into a safe zone, or fire from there, it ceases to be "safe." What's more, when you tell your people not to go for safety at all, but to stay put, it raises questions about just how concerned Hamas is for the civilian population of Gaza...surely if New York were being bombed and invaded, Obama wouldn't tell New Yorkers to stay put in their homes, right? He'd tell the people who were in harm's way to evacuate? Well...Hamas isn't doing that...why don't they share in the blame?

"Do you agree with the UN that Israel is committing war crimes?"

I'll wait until after the war to make that determination...

I WILL say that Israel HAS committed such crimes in the past, as have Hamas and Hezbollah, so while I don't doubt that with nearly 700 civilians dead someone hasn't committed some kind of crime on the Israeli side, I likewise think Hamas has war crimes to answer for too.

I also think we need to re-examine how we view war and war crimes...

I've said this before, but in an age of terrorism, where wars and the rules of fighting have already changed so much, I'm really not sure how in touch the UN's views are on those things...for example, things like social media have hugely changed the war wars are fought, because as Israel is finding out, bad pictures can lose you the PR war and thus lose you international support. We've had war-time pictures for centuries, of course, but it's never been easier to share so many sensational images, in context or otherwise, with all the facts or otherwise, so quickly.

I have argued that Hamas uses human shields (again, telling people NOT to leave, but to stay put in their homes, right where Hamas is fighting) and that they're using these images as part of a social media war...and that's just one societal way in which war is perceived and communicated differently now.

So, tl;dr:

1. I'll check after the war to see what gets decided a war crime, and judge it on that basis, and from the distancing power of time,

2. That being said, as Hamas and Israel have both been guilty of war crimes in the past, I'm sure both have, in this war, done their fair share of that as well,

3. I think we need to change the way we evaluate war altogether.

"No, nobody can help him understand. It's a lost cause."

Now now, Putin...don't harass me or hurt my feelings, or I'll tell.......

I appreciate the tl;dr, Obi.

And I agree that the definition of war has blurred. Perhaps it was too rigidly defined to begin with.

And like a few other things, like Libertarianism, the discussion is a good one, even if different sides are too far apart to agree on most things.

If Israel is bombing the places that Gazans were told to go for safetly, then Hamas's advice for people to stay in their homes is just as reasonable.

This is the truth - for the people of Gaza there is no safe place to shelter.

What are you trying to say, Chaqa?

"This is the truth - for the people of Gaza there is no safe place to shelter."

And I would again say both sides have some blame for that...

Actually, to be accurate, Israel, Hamas AND Egypt have some blame for that, as Egypt's closed its borders too.

And if Hamas is hiding weapons in areas that were supposed to be set aside for safety, then they're contributing in a very real way to those safety zones not becoming safe. There'd be no reason to hit them were there no weapons...and even the United Nations isn't exempt--twice in one week Hamas rockets are found in their schools? That's not helping to keep Gazans safe or sheltered.

@Obi, sorry, but I'm not taking "lets agree to disagree" as an answer, especially when you go about perpetuating the same biased views in the exact same post, just to another poster. Yes, you have posted literally hundreds of posts, but with very little substantiated evidence. You found a single quote from a Hamas official and rode that roughshod til it wore out. Comparatively my posts have been well cited and you wave it off as "well we agree on the basis". Not so Obi.

I'm mainly looking to break your moral equivalency view here. That while both sides have committed acts of evil/war crimes, one side is more largely responsible for the circumstances than the other, and one side is certainly keeping the status quo going moreso than the other.

This isn't a matter of us just disagreeing on basic points, this a matter of you looking at my points and the evidence and refusing to even engage with them. That's purposeful ignorance and is largely what allows Israel to get away with the things it does. What do you have to say for Israel's racist internal policies and how this prejudice is meted out on Palestinians? What do you have to say for the collective punishment doled out to all Palestinians, in Gaza and the West Bank, and not just Hamas (a point you continue to believe and push).

"for example, things like social media have hugely changed the war wars are fought, because as Israel is finding out, bad pictures can lose you the PR war and thus lose you international support. We've had war-time pictures for centuries, of course, but it's never been easier to share so many sensational images, in context or otherwise, with all the facts or otherwise, so quickly."

Consider that this is largely why popular opinion is shifting away from Israel; we are see the stark contrast in the conflict, the reality of what is taking place, and the uneven handedness of Israel's aggression. This isn't a "social media war" being done by Hamas, it's plain reality being thrown in your face, and you refuse to even open your eyes to it.

@Eden: so you'll respond to that but not to PM? HMMMM

"What do you have to say for Israel's racist internal policies and how this prejudice is meted out on Palestinians? What do you have to say for the collective punishment doled out to all Palestinians, in Gaza and the West Bank, and not just Hamas (a point you continue to believe and push)."

The racist policies are...racist and shameful. I think I've said that.

They're internal policies, not a matter of Israel fighting Hamas, which is my targeted, "pinpoint" (irony of that word and all) topic here.

Internally, within its borders Israel has racist policies that need to change.

In the West Bank, as I've said before, the settlers must be removed.

In Gaza, Hamas is what needs to change.

"Consider that this is largely why popular opinion is shifting away from Israel; we are see the stark contrast in the conflict, the reality of what is taking place, and the uneven handedness of Israel's aggression. This isn't a "social media war" being done by Hamas, it's plain reality being thrown in your face, and you refuse to even open your eyes to it."

A key disagreement during the peace process is over what should be used as the guidelines for peace...the 1948 borders, 1967 borders, or something else.

Do you think those viewing and commenting on this conflict are informed on that fact...or that Hamas doesn't acknowledge Israel's right to exist, or their human rights violations--or even those Israeli racist policies, for that matter?

No--for the most part, I would submit most are sharing images context-free...we see suffering, and immediately empathize with it...but in so doing, I feel too many reduce this to suffering party/oppressing party--and that's not the case.

You cannot reduce a conflict as complex to this as a hashtag or a picture or a statistic...but that's largely what social media activism does PERIOD...on issues as diverse as gun control, rape culture, the Ukraine situation, and this situation.

I loathe Hashtag Activism...which is what I see the social media reaction here as largely being--condensing nearly 70 years of history (ALL of which factors into this, with BOTH sides to blame in incredible amounts for just about every factor, and yes, with Hamas representing a new wrinkle to that) to a statement that amounts to what Ban-Ki Moon so "wisely" shared with the world yesterday--

"Stop fighting, start talking."

Why, thnak you, Mr. Moon...and those forwarding equivalent views on this war...that thought never crossed anyone's mind at any point before or during this crisis, I'm sure, "Violence is bad, talk out your problems instead."

That is what I loathe about the social media war, and its attitudes towards this war and most complex issues--it grossly, GROSSLY oversimplifies a matter to a hashtag, and instead of people doing research into what Hamas (and Israel, to be fair) actually DOES...they simply forward the picture of one side being shelled and tell the other side to stop, not taking into account the extraordinary degree of context that goes along with that picture.

Chaqa please do not make multi accusations on the forum.

"I'm mainly looking to break your moral equivalency view here. That while both sides have committed acts of evil/war crimes, one side is more largely responsible for the circumstances than the other, and one side is certainly keeping the status quo going moreso than the other."

And I maintain that point--

In Gaza (not inside Israel proper, not inside the West Bank) I maintain the blame for the suffering is more the fault of Hamas and both its policies (for example, hiding and firing weapons from what are supposed to be safe zones, thereby making them targets and ceasing to make them safe, endangering hundreds of civilians at a time) as well as what it tells its citizens (ie, to stay put in civilian areas rather than evacuate) than Israel.

I would add to that--

Hamas is a branch of the Muslim Brotherhood.
The Muslim Brotherhood has connections to ISIS.

ISIS is condemned by just about everyone NOT interested in seeing a vicious, anti-democracy, sharia law-fueled Islamic caliphate drape over the Middle East.

We judge one another by the quality of our friends, in part...

Israel while now straining ties in the West, still historically has remained friends with democracies across the globe.

Hamas has remained friends with those that see democracy as wicked and instead promote sharia law and abject cruelty to non-Islamic peoples.

That's not morally equivalent at all.

(And do you think the majority of people forwarding these messages and pictures took the time to do that group-to-group research, either? Of course not...it'd take away from an attention span that really does only span the length of 150 characters.)