Also, Putin, you neglect to mention that the fact that 1) There are government sponsored "marches" in Moscow for an invasion of another country and 2) Counter-protests, while small, are being broken up and thrown in jail. That's what I found worrying.

goldfinger0303: Are you giving him that second URL to present the other side of the coin? Because, frankly, the article begins with lofty ambitions of sifting through both Russian and Western propoganda and then proceeds to tell only one side of the story, spicing it up with a detailed account of Yanukovych's private thought process. I love this quote from the comments: "From New York to Berlin, the propaganda haze is dire. This article just adds to that fog."

goldfinger0303: Events are fast-moving, though I don't see how that event is related to what has been discussed. In any case, what makes you think that such enormous demonstrations are staged other than that article?

@JECE - yes, I provided that link as a counterpoint to Putin's. The article does have a protestor bias, but it also acknowledges some of the potential problems that the protestors are facing from the radical right. It does have some nice facts on the very diverse backgrounds of these "Fascist" opposition leaders which should at least cause you to pause and question the Russian side of things. That's all I'm looking for it to do for you and Putin - make you pause and question.

As for the demonstrations, I find it very possible that they are staged, just based off of the history of autocratic regimes both in the Middle East and Asia. The fact that such a small counter-protest was dismantled and jailed also seems to add strength to the argument. Everything Putin does is carefully plotted. I have to say I'm damn fascinated by him. He's this century's Hitler of political maneuvering (but not warmongering and genocide causing....I won't accuse him of that).

one might argue that Putin's warmongering might be up there...
First they came for Georgia, and no one helped.
Then they came for Ukraine, and no one helped (?)
who knows what's next

The gays, Gobble. Don't forget the gays

goldfinger0303: I haven't explicitly given my stand yet, mainly because I don't really have one. I'm taking a Socratic approach in this thread, yet frankly I see Putin33's messages as somewhat more cohesive if not nuanced.

And frankly, I have to disagree with you on the article. It does not discuss the diversity of the political opposition at all. And it is the political opposition in Kiev, now effectively controlling much of the country, which Russian media frantically pointing at, not the peaceful or violent protesters per se. The diversity of the peaceful and violent protesters is all the article attempts to illustrate, an issue which I frankly find less relevant.

And Putin hasn't tried to ban the Communist Party despite it being his only real opposition. That was Hitler's opening move in the political maneauverings once in power. Actually, I don't even know why I said that. Comparing Putin to Hitler just doesn't deserve a reply.

And why would you say that autocratic regimes favor (or would want to favor) spontaneous (or spontaneous-looking) absolutely gigantic demonstrations, even if they could (or have) pulled them off?


Gobbledydook: I already explained why the situations in Abkhazia and South Ossetia are not comparable to those in the Crimea in this thread, to no response. Could you please try to explain why you see a true connection?

"more cohesive if not nuanced" --> "more cohesive, even if not particularly nuanced"

Russian media is frantically

JECE - you don't see how Putin has maneuvered himself into an autocratic role within the confines of a democratically elected government? How he has expanded his influence over all of industry and all parts of government? Now, that's just internal politics and common to any autocrat in history. Its foreign policy where he is shining. Bringing a once crumbled great nation back into glory? Taking on a defiant smaller neighbor and taking de facto control over its territories? Organizing the annexation of Crimea? Having the West too frightened to take action, ready to take the first prospect of peace he offers? That doesn't remind you at all of Hitler and Sudentenland? I would put money on it that Russian troops are still in Crimea at the end of the year.

And I don't see where you're saying the article doesn't discuss the opposition. It lists the transitional government appointments to the bureaucracy - a large portion of which are Russian speaking Ukrainians from eastern Ukraine. A large portion of the Parliament is still from Yanukovych's old Party of Regions. The appointment as head of the navy was a Russian Crimean - who has defected to Russia now, it would seem. If the government really was a fascist regime intent on eliminating Russia from Ukrainian life - you would think the leading candidate for President could speak Ukrainian.

And the demonstrations serve to give whatever cause they are trying to promote legitimacy - both to the international world and to their own populace. This has been done in North Korea, Iran, China, Turkey, Egypt, etc etc. Its really a rather common thing for them to do.

Greek media has posted a list of the laws the new Rada is passing.

http://www.thetoc.gr/eng/news/article/ukraine-to-ban-greek-as-official-minority-language

I wonder if goldfinger and the rest of the coup supporters find any of this 'troubling'.

"JECE - you don't see how Putin has maneuvered himself into an autocratic role within the confines of a democratically elected government?"

Really just stop with the talk about autocracy, when you're supporting a violent coup with cabinet members from the Svoboda Party and Praviy Sektor. Just stop.

"Also, Putin, you neglect to mention that the fact that 1) There are government sponsored "marches" in Moscow for an invasion of another country"

The Rada banned the Communist Party and repealed the law on fascist propaganda. As JECE said, Putin has done nothing of the sort yet you complain about Russian 'autocracy'.

"The gays, Gobble. Don't forget the gays"

Yeah let's talk about your Fatherland Party and their 'support' for the gays...

"He's this century's Hitler of political maneuvering (but not warmongering and genocide causing....I won't accuse him of that)."

This is really beyond the pale. I'm not taking you seriously anymore on this issue. Your buddies are the ones unfurling banners of Nazi collaborators and sporting wolfsangel insignia, and desecrating tombs of the unknown soldier, all of which you've shamelessly defended.

"a large portion of which are Russian speaking Ukrainians from eastern Ukraine"

Russian speakers make up 85% of the population, so congrats while being filled to the brim with right-wing nationalists, they threw a bone to the east.

Sorry I meant to say 45%.

Putin, you deflected all my points on Russia by saying "well in Ukraine they're doing this" while not actually addressing my attacks on Russia. I've admitted and said that the leaders in Kiev are taking some bad missteps. Of the laws mentioned in your article, three stand out to me as being "Why the hell would they pass that?"

4201 – Bill to ban Ukrainian Communist Party activity.
4176 – Bill to repeal law penalizing Nazi propaganda.
4199- Bill to repeal the use of their native language by minorities , which re4fers to Russian, Romanian, Hungarian, and Greek.

And I won't stop talking about autocracy until you admit Putin is an autocrat. The violent coup in Ukraine has served to limit the powers of the President, so I am not being a hypocrite.

Yes you are. You care nothing for democracy if you support these thugs violently coming to power, period.

They firebombed the Party of Regions hq, they attacked the Communist Party hq, and you say you're for democracy? You dismiss any protest that doesn't support what *you* support as being fake, but the Ukrainian putschists, everything they do is genuine. All of their support from western backers, nothing to see here. It's not astroturfed, not at all.

You're deflecting again, Putin. I bend my position in response to your criticisms, because some of them are valid, but you never bend yours. Why?

You're comparing Putin to Hitler, what the hell am I supposed to exactly bend? Everything you've said so far has been jump-the-gun histrionics. Nothing you've said has actually come to pass, about annexation or any of it.

+10 to goldfinger.

It's often very annoying debating with you Putin, because even if you are obviously, obviously wrong (factually, morally, howeverly) you never turn around the boat and that makes it virtually impossible for me and others to do so as well making debates with you here unnecessarily parliamentary and it means you have zero credibility. I want to learn here, see how people respond to my ideas, see how I respond to theirs. So stop doing that.

I have no idea what that just said.

It's very annoying that you people are going around making stuff up, spreading lies about an ultimatum, believing everything in the western media, denying the fact that Russian speakers are being targeted or at least not giving a shit, denying the fact that the West is backing the putschists with money, heaping all sorts of abuse on Russia, equating them to Hitler when the Bandera-ites are the people you are supporting, and I have to sit here and put up with all this garbage.

You don't, we'll be fine.

Putin, that was just one of my points. You said that the troops in Crimea were local self-defense forces and now it's come out that they're not. Even Moscow admits its their troops. Its just I'm about done debating you because you won't yield on anything. I have admitted concern many times for the well-being of Russian speakers in Ukraine, and voiced my disapproval at many of the pseudo-fascist elements of the opposition. But not once have you yielded any ground. Partially that may be due to the fact that its many voices against one and you fear your points lose their legitimacy if you give any ground, but that's not the case. If anything, it will make everyone take what you say more seriously.

^yup

" I have admitted concern many times for the well-being of Russian speakers in Ukraine, and voiced my disapproval at many of the pseudo-fascist elements of the opposition."

What are we supposed to do with this 'concern'. Apparently it's not concerning enough for you not to support the violent overthrow of a democratically elected regime.

"Even Moscow admits its their troops"

The people who took over the airports, where? You've said so many untrue things already, why should I believe you now?

"But not once have you yielded any ground. "

Because 9 out of 10 posts you have posted have turned out to be gross exaggerations not backed up by anything. I'm not going to yield just for the sake of yielding.

You mean like the gross exaggeration that the Russian troops in Crimea are in fact Russian? Perhaps they're not as Russian as many other Russians?

Or the gross exaggeration that North Korea is not a monarchy? That was also a fun discussion. How many generations of chubby crown princes with a bad haircut does a monarchy make, Putty?