Amen, MichiganMan. again.

'You guys want to compare murder and crimes stats from yours and other countries with strict gun laws to those of the US and claim that gun control laws as the cause of the disparity.'

When it is clear that the higher gun crimes are due to glorification of warriors, then 'spirit' of getting what you want by fighting for it, and the american way of blaming people who don't work hard enough... i mean, cultural.

I honestly don't understand your run-on sentence -- sorry. Please clarify yourself.

MichiganMan, my contention is that the cultural factors which mean this is actually an arguement in the US (while most other nations decided to disarm their civilians - i mean civil nations) is the same cultural factor which results in higher crime rates and more gun crime.

You do understand that a HUGE percentage of the "gun crime" in the US is related to the drug trade, and specifically to the criminal gangs that operate the trade, right? Despite what you think, Americans that own guns aren't cowboys running around looking to shoot anyone that looks at them sideways.

Read this article that was written in the wake of the Virgina Tech shootings, it completely contradicts everything that you Brits are saying about your Utopian gun-free island.

http://abcnews.go.com/2020/story?id=3083618&page=1#.UA8mAZEv_wk

The fact that gun crime in the UK is less frequent than in the US is not the relevant statistic. What is relevant, however, is the gun crime stats in the UK PRIOR to the enactment of the near complete ban in 1997. This stat was almost certainly ALREADY lower than US's, and if this article is accurate, actually INCREASED after the ban.

Your argument(s) and comparison, as I have been saying all along, are spurious and misleading.

@krellin. shhh.

@MichiganMan. This conversation is frustratingly transforming into a platform for your beliefs, not a discourse on the subject. Several people here have put forth valid points, yet you have failed to response in due kind to much of what has been said. This 'it's my right' defense is tired. So far, at least half of your opponents in this debate have intoned that they support gun control, not a wholesale ban, thus mooting your only point of contention for...oh, the last 8 hours or so. I'm not interested in your half-cocked thesis on the issue - I want a conversation. The devolution of this thread is, sadly, indicative of larger cultural and political climate of our country.

@MichMan This is referencing your reply to my post. Sorry had to run out and buy a gun...fortunately because I bought it on the black market it only took me a couple of hours. jk

But seriously, I was trying, by giving those hypotheticals, to show that your right to bear arms inpinges my right to saftey. While the bill of rights are not inalienable (that is life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness (saftey and money), I agree with you that theoretically no two rights should contradict one another. I feel you are being naive by implying that, because our ideals contradict it makes my point invalid. Conflicting rights whether implicit or explicit are why we have the Supreme Court. Those are the kinds of issues they define all the time.

'a HUGE percentage of the "gun crime" in the US is related to the drug trade'

same as in ireland actually.

We just have much less gun crime - perhaps because most people don't bother going to the effort of getting their hands on a gun... because they gain (being able to defend yourself?) isn't worth the risk (almost all guns are illegal, thus getting caught is much easier, cause unlike drugs a gun is a bit more obvious...) ESPECIALLY if everyone else is living in a culture where nobody has a gun, the supposed benefits are less worth it...

'Despite what you think, Americans that own guns aren't cowboys running around looking to shoot anyone that looks at them sideways.' - What i think of American cowboys, who i've met is that they carry a gun at all times, and found it difficult fvisiting Ireland knowing they wouldn't be allowed bring their gun. I've also seen the arsenal which they keep in their safe at home...

That said, most of the close relatives think it's crazy to have soo many guns.

But no, not at all 'wild west' shooting anyone who looks side-ways at them.

Our police stop cars for traffic incidents and are not armed. Our drivers get tickets and do not shoot at the police.

Very different culture. (the only times i recall seeing a gun in Ireland I was on an army barracks, the only time i've handled a gun there was no (actual) ammo in the room - well you know, apart from the US security inside the embassy grounds, but that's US soil...)

The UK is different, their police do carry guns, and automatic weapons at that. In train stations aswell (at least they did last time i visited, they were extra cautious due to terrorist threats)

'The devolution of this thread is, sadly, indicative of larger cultural and political climate of our country.'

i've read stuff about this recently, as it happens.

The basic idea is that the internet allows us spend more time talking to people who think the same as us, and less time actually seeing things from a different prespective - back when there were only three tv stations you were necessarily exposed to more contrary points of view... whereas today you can frequenct 'gun-nuts R us' forums, and 'why your momma shoulda aborted you' discussion group.

We are only disagreeing here because the thing we have in common is Diplomacy, and people are very used to not thinking through the alternative positions.

I'm not inclined to be convinced by this, but it's a thought.

I can imagine owning a gun, and living in a gun culture. I don't imagine i'd like it. I prefer to think i can walk down a street at night without being attacked; I think having a need to be carrying a gun would make me feel uncomfortable - i'd be worried that if i left my gun at home i could be attacked, as it's clearly the best defence i have in the dark alley of my hometown...

Is this a simplification of the pro-gun position?

+1 Erik.

God....the liberal whiners on here make me want to puke. Every time they read an argument that is irrefutable and goes against their beliefs...they say the topic has gone astray, and it isn't relevant...or they say michigan man has changed the topic...even though he is 100% ON TOPIC.

YOu fucking losers....have the balls....grow up...and admit that MAYBE your pre-conceived notions, your absolute lack of facts, was giving you a FALSE impression of reality. ADMIT that when you are presented with REAL FACTS your *emotional*-based beliefs just don't stand up.

Gun control laws would NOT have stopped this crime. Guin control laws, in fact, have a tendency to INCREASE gun violence. The data is there. Suck it, bitches. Man up and swallow the truth and have the courage to adjust your false beliefs.

Muting Krellin means not seeing this thread, so with that tirade, bye-bye and back on the mute list with you!

Awwww....poor wittle baby orathaic can't handle truth, can he? Do woo need mummy to come wipe your wittle butt now? Jackass...

You KNOW you have hit the uncomfortable truth and exposed the lie of liberalism when your get multiple mutes for doing what? Simply pointing out the consistent facts that deny the emotionally based argument of liberals. *I WIN*....facts outweigh emotion...and the liberals just can't handle it. Pathetic. MATURE individuals would either argue their points, or concede that they may have been mistaken. CHILDREN take their balls and go home...hit mute. Pathetic little bitches, aren't they....

@krellin You should apologize to MichiganMan. Though I disagree with his wandering focus and refusal to address certain points, nobody deserves to find themselves on the same side of a debate as you. I acknowledge your position, but not your manner or your inability to defend your position on a thread which you started. You haven't actually said anything this whole time - just a lot of empty, angry talk. Nobody here will mistake *you* for a mature individual, so just cool it with your tirades. It's only frustrating for so long. You've become a belligerent child interrupting a grown-up conversation. Bedtime for krellin, methinks.

@jacob....grow up, bitch. No empty angry talk here....I have spurred on the conversation and moved it's direction. And, after all, it's MY FUCKING THREAD, jackass....OBVIOUSLY I have directed the debate becaus I fucking STARTED IT.

As for mature....yes....you lib-tards denying facts and reality....VERY mature. Fuck off....

Has anyone in this *ahem* intriguing thread had a look at Australia, and its experience with gun crime, drugs, the black market and the changing regulatory environment as it relates to firearms ownership?

Why so pissy guys! Conversation please.

BrownPaper....why don't you put aside your useless non-conversation and just TELL US what intriguing information you have to divulge.

http://www.detroitnews.com/article/20120720/AUTO01/207200430/1361/U.S.-traffic-deaths-jump-13.5-percent-in-2012

Again....CLEARLY the deadly personal automobile needs to be banned. WHEN will the madness end?!?!?!?? Public transportation is more than sufficient....and kids with smart phones texting as they drive are killing thousands for the sole purpose of personal indulgence and the need for instant gratification. BAN THE AUTOMOBILE!!!!!!

At this horrifying rate of increase....13%+ in one year....we will ALL BE DEAD SOON!!!

How about we just make it illegal for people to be texting while driving or make it harder to get a license.

"grow up, bitch. No empty angry talk here" haha

It's people like you that keep me going. Three cheers for unintentional irony.

Both are in effect in Ohio and Kentucky. Kentucky has both attendance and grade requirements to get and *keep* a license for those under 18. And I know texting while driving is illegal in both states.

It's illegal in Minnesota as well I want to say.

@jacob,

Wandering focus? Please explain. What points have I refused to address? If anything, it is my point about the right of self defense that is being generally ignored by the anti gun crowd.

Wow...you're just plain nasty, Krellin.

I'm suggesting the Australian experience might add something to the conversation, which seems to be very US+UK-centric. I do not want to present an opinion - because
a> I don't want to skew the convo.
b> The amount that has been written on the Aus data is massive
c> I don't have time to transcribe it
d> I don't want to read someone ranting at me - I actually don't care what you think of my opinions.

What would be useful about the Aus experience is the presence of several mass-murders, the changed legislative environment and a lot of opinions about the effect of mass buy-backs of various kinds of firearms.
Mass murders have occurred on both sides of the changed legislative environment - though the changes to the law occurred after 35 deaths at Port Arthur. That's a lot of dead people, so I figure that makes looking at Aus somewhat worthwhile.

So... might be worth a look.