"I really believe that there is a genuine feeling of civic duty and respect for the rule of law in our elected representatives"

I really believe you suffer from schizophrenic delusions

I can see why you wouldnt agree with alot of what I'm saying, but to go so far as to say american politicians are honorable and law abiding??? thats just wishful thinking

So after hitting the 8500 point of no return on Friday the dow decided to go up by the largest single-day percentage gain in 75 years.

Did someone cancel that inevitable market crash and forget to tell us.

the largest single-day percentage gain in 75 years preceded immediately by the worst market performance since the great depression? that smells like insider trading and the PPT.

shit, even if it was 100% legit, it's just a band-aid on a bullet-wound.
credit markets are still frozen, the housing crisis has not even begun to be solved, and globally the markets are still doing terrible

Sicarius, i never said you did or not have a family, or that you lack an education. Though I would assume that being such a traveler you would have a hard time bringing your family with you, but whatever works for you.

I dont agree that there is an innate civic duty in all politicians. They are politicians, and politics is about who has power, and how can they use it. There is always a possibility that Bush would excercise his power to suspend the constitution under his own definition of an emergency, but I doubt it would go well for him. I think there would a large international reaction to it.

the people that want power should be the last ones we give it to.

bush is a puppet.

the international reaction would be large indeed, but do you think anyone would DO anything about it?

besides its not gonna be, hi I'm your government, you are now all my slaves.

it will certainly have a guise of economic crisis or terrorist attack (prolly a false flag) or any number of things
so the suspension of rights or martial law would SEEM justified

What America are you people living in? This won't happen!

aww thats cute, you think our government still recognizes your constitutional rights

wow, I love the way that sarcastic condescension really makes you realize that everything you think and believe in is truly false.

Let me try ... Aww that's cute how you think that being an "anarchist" is cool still. Did you miss the 70's and your chance to hang out with the first wave of slackers who didn't want to contribute to society? Awww, that's just adorable. wook at da widdle anarchist ...

Did I just say "truly false"?

You're an ass, Sicarius. There will be no power grab by the government. Nothing that you believe in will happen. So have fun with your crackpot theories (which I have a suspicion you form under the influence of one of them) and bumming around the greatest nation on earth without contributing to it. Anarchism is an anachronism. Your nutty predictions will not come true, your radical views will be proven wrong. Get a job, Biff.

You don't like it, go to Russia you spoiled little pinko snot nosed ament!

i see some of us are still living in the 70s. "if you don't like it go to russia" ...man thats old!

whats a "ament"?

Went back up to day.

Almost back above 10,000 mark, now.

It's funny how Sicarius thinks we all depend on our government recognizing our constitutional rights. Well I sure as hell don't. I depend on my fellow man recognizing my constitutional rights. And my human rights. I encounter the goverment in about 0.1% of my daily life so, to me, they are next to irrelevant, unless I'm reading the news... the government is a sideshow to real human existence, which I find MUCH more interesting.

Give up your fixation, Sicarius, and start LIVING! Your sad cries sound so familiar, I can't help but fall for the ruse and try to lend you advice. I know you won't even consider it since your mind is cemented shut.

The economic crisis is far from over as some people seem to be suggesting. There are more things to be worked out and a very close eye must be kept on the global economy. I do not believe that the US will be able to use it to take control of the state though either.

The most important counter to that idea is that American rulers consider democracy essential to their being. They will not consider removing it 'right'. They could however manipulate people into a fascist way of operating. Accusing dissent as being disloyal, starting wars to gain nationalistic support et cetera. We have seen clear degrees of this in the past decade.

Both Hitler and Pol Pot considered what hey were doing infallibly right. In both cases purifying their people. In Hitler's case expanding Germany in all directions and in Pol Pot's instigating a massive de-urbanization.

Remember that both Hitler and Pol Pot probably would have won elections half-way through their time as leader as well. Both had overwhelming public support with disagreement being forced out of the system. If the US adopted a secret police system and started heavily censoring the media they could easily push the US in a similar but elected direction. It would be a chosen fascism through democracy.

IMO it couldn't happen for decades if ever though. But I do see it as a possibility.

ok I'm sorry for the condescension. I'm ashamed I brought myself down to that level. no sarcasm.

back up to 10,000? right now its at 9200. you need to watch the general trends not the fluctuations. and we can all agree that the general trend is down down down.

a lot of what I say are theories, things that might happen, not things I think will happen. that's an important distinction. and just looking at the flagrant violations of the constitution by the US government you can see they no longer represent or respect the people they represent.

start living? I am living brother. I just got back from the grand canyon (amazing by the way) I've been traveling around seeing this beautiful country for two years now, the experiences I've had are just simply amazing. my life is like a poem.

also, I don't shrug off advice as long as it's given earnestly. so itf you have some advice you'd like to give me I can promise you I will seriously consider it. really.

this country is becoming more fascist by the day. I can see it happening.

anarchism is an anachronism? the anti-authoritarian movement is bigger now than it's been in American history. ever.
an whats this about my views being proven wrong? I never told you any of my views, you haven't been around long enough to hear them. you've been hearing theories, possibilities, and they absolutely could be proven wrong, and honestly I hope I am proven wrong. I would love for all of YOU to get to say I told you so. I'm much much rather be wrong and not live under fascism, or more at least.

I've been letting my temper rule my posts, I am not trying to insult you, I'm trying to open your eyes. I dont expect a complete agreement on what all the contributing factors ultimately mean, but I think I can at least show you the individual events. We can agree on those, and that the things that are going on are very fucked up.

maybe they don't equal impending fascism, but they at least equal, 'ok this is fucked up lets do something about this'

"you can see they no longer represent or respect the people they represent."

no longer respect or represent the American poulace

*populace

*populace

closed at 8900 today

Invictus:

"America is built on the idea of freedom and democracy."

-> Since then repealed by the Patriot Act.

And don't give us any founding fathers non-sense, they created a government that was free for the male, white, land-owning citizens. These select few with voting rights did not even vote for the President. They voted for their State government, who then selected electors and *they* voted the President. You call that Democracy?

Now, to address the Freedom question. I simply need to point to the fact that the very author of the Declaration of *Independence* owned many slaves himself. How would he feel if they declared independence? Of course he would not like it, as he does not think they have rights. Are at least the men not equal to him (as he had just wrote, "All men are created equal"), thus gaining right to such an independence from a worse oppression than Jefferson himself was fleeing?

Of course, you'll tell me that this was the past. You could not be more wrong. The only freedom that has not been pervaded by your federally elected government is the right to bear arms (just in case your army of over 1 million active service-persons couldn't do the job). The Patriot Act, is so patriotic even nationals can be held without writ of habeas corpus.

And those electors of yours? Nope, still not bound by any law to vote for the actual candidate chosen by the people. Not to mention the fact that most people are puzzled that an executive ruler can be elected to office when more people voted against him than for him. I suppose a brother as governor of a disputed state is a good thing to have (just in case you're a bad candidate and can't actually win without cheating the system).

Freedom? - No
Democracy? - No

Try again.

America is unique in that it was founded on an idea, not on any tribal or regional associations. That ideas was individual freedom and we have been trying to fully realize it ever since. That is America's purpose for existing. What is Russia's? What is Thailand's? What is Mali's? Canada has no reason to exist.

If you knew American history you'd know that until the Civil War the United States was thought of more as a collection of individual states than a single nation. People identified with their state much more than today. The federal government also did practically nothing till the Civil War and didn't make doing things permanent on any significant scale till the New Deal. So having state legislatures pick the Electors was no too big of a deal. And they stopped it after Jefferson anyway.

Jefferson did own slaves and that was deplorable. However he wrote a bill that would have banned slavery in the new Western territories in hopes that it would quickly die out. Slavery was dying during the Revolution, and only the invention of the cotton gin and EUROPE's demand for cotton reinvigorated it. More slaves were brought to the Caribbean and South America than to the United States.

The PATRIOT ACT (it's an acronym) does have serious problems, but it hardly destroys American freedoms. Also, just don't do anything with terrorists and you've got nothing to worry about.

Faithless electors have never changed the outcome of an election. The Electoral College maintains the federal character of America, and abolishing it would make smaller states irrelevant in the election. Clinton won with less than a majority both times because of Ross Perot.

America does have Freedom and it does have Democracy. And since you're not from America why do you care? Worry about you own country.

Canada has no reason to exist? You bigoted prick. America isn't the only country in the world. Canada is a country because it is populated by a nation of Canadians.

I at least sort of agreed with a lot of what you had to say Invictus, except that one bit "just don't do anything with terrorists and you've got nothing to worry about." I'm sorry, but there's a reason that freedom from unreasonable searches and seizures is in the bill of rights. The "well if you're not doing anything wrong you have nothing to worry about" argument just doesn't cut it when it comes to surveillance and other such things. Just because I'm not doing anything illegal doesn't mean I want the government or anyone else spying on me.
The real issue I have is that many of the provisions of the PATRIOT Act and other expanded government powers lead to situations in which the government, or even just individuals within the government, could be spying on people for reasons that have nothing to do with terrorism or even anything illegal, but we the people, and the people being observed have no way of knowing if it's happening and no way of preventing it.

There are a lot of reasons not to want expanded government spying powers, whats to stop an administration from spying on political opponents, and claiming it's classified whenever anyone tries to investigate? How about my simple right to privacy?
I know a number of people in the law enforcement and intelligence community, and they are good people. I'm not trying to say there that the people doing these things are out to get people or that most of them would willingly do immoral or illegal things, but there are going to be a few bad apples, and people who will bow to pressure from above, and I want reasonable oversight and accountability to make sure things are all on the up and up.
I'm not against law enforcement, or hunting down terrorists or any other criminals, but I do want reasonable oversight and limits on those activities to protect against abuses.

The Canada thing was a joke. Golly. Lighten up.

So was the idea that not associating with terrorists is all you need to do to keep safe from the PATRIOT ACT. I agree with everything you say, DrOct. You put it much better than me.

Its difficult to take an argument seriously when you can't tell what you mean seriously and what you don't. Its also easy to backtrack with that strategy.

Unfortunately text communications make it difficult to tell what's a joke, and what's not (and people are notoriously terrible at guessing tone correctly in text communications. I think in one study they found that people had about a 50/50 shot of getting the intended tone of an e-mail correct.) So it's best in discussions like this, if you're worried about that sort of thing, to either avoid jokes or make them painfully obvious (unfortunately that can sometimes destroy the humor...).

I can see misunderstanding the associating with terrorists comment as being serious, but the Canada one? Come on. No one believes that.

Invictus, you did basically state that America is the only 'real' country even if it was in the context of a joke. I think that warranted the 'bigoted prick' remark.

Thailand for example was created about 500 years ago when they rebelled from the Khmer empire. It was founded on the basic principle that they were not Khmer they were Thai and that they didn't want to be ruled by the Khmer monarchy.

Russia as we know it today was formed by three major renaissances/revolutions. About a millenium ago the Kievan Rus imploded and as their power declined the Novgorod Republic began to rise. Two centuries ago Peter and Catherine the Great redeveloped Russia and defined it as a major European power and empire - more or less defining who we think of as Russian. The third revolution in WWI formed Russia as a communist state and created a modern nation founded on principles of equality and fairness.

The nation of Mali was a great Islamic empire that controlled West African trade a millenium ago. It was conquered by the French in the late 1800s and they gained independance in the early 60s. Like most post-imperialist countries it was founded on a concept of freedom. After economic decline a dictator took power in the late 60s and retained power until 1991. In 1991 a military coup took place and a new constitution was drafted. Since then Mali has become one of the most politically stable countries in Africa.

All nations are formed under 'ideals'. Every last one. If you knew world history you would know that. They are their reason for existing.

I agree with Centurian

also, jerkface, still waiting for your advice

"America is unique in that it was founded on an idea, not on any tribal or regional associations. That ideas was individual freedom and we have been trying to fully realize it ever since. That is America's purpose for existing. What is Russia's? What is Thailand's? What is Mali's? Canada has no reason to exist."

What a load of B.S.

1. Of Course the United States was founded on Regional Associations. The 13 Colonies were contiguous. Hello? That, and they were all British colonies. It's not like included Spanish Florida, did they?

2. I agree with Archonix, America is hardly alone in being (in part) founded on an Idea. I could add dozens more Countries, including Revolutionary France, The Soviet Union, in fact ALL Communist Countries (not saying these were GOOD ideas, but...), let's see, Liberia, Modern India, Pakistan and Bangladesh....I could go on, but the point is America had a revolution based on ideas of freedom from oppression. The same as every popular revolution in the world.