While it now forms part of Christian religious culture and history, the word English "Jehovah" was actually a based on a translation mistake. It is combination of the English equivalent letters for YHWH with the vowel points for Adonai (Lord), as a reminder to read "Adonai" every time one came to the name YHWH, which at some point in history the name of God started to be considered too holy to be read aloud.

In Jewish religion and culture, that is.

The original translators just wrote it out as one word and then English-speaking readers started to say it like one word, Jehovah, instead of the JHVH spelling / A-O-A Adonai pronunciation of Jewish readers.

a lot of you are jewish, so why even hide it? i don't have any secrets. except all my personal information and identity.

the real problem is when people buy the propaganda that anti-central bank and anti-israel is somehow anti-jew. what about the palestinians? the jews who wrote the bible have more genetic connection to them than to netenyahu. christ, look at the protests in israel itself. i think only in america do people believe that support of the apartheid regime in israel is the jewish identity.

I'm not truly saying I am a super Jew or saying anyone is not a jew. I am simply trying to state a fact, a fact that Mujus confirmed. Saying "Yahweh" is without a doubt one of my pet peeves about some forms of evangelical Christianity, and I brought it up. Meanwhile I have some guy who spends 6 microsoft word pages pontificating on Shakespearean race relations every time its brought up pointing his finger at me saying I delve too much into minutia and claiming authority when he prides himself on not being educated in the subject. In door 2 I have a Mod-troll continuing his puzzling attacks which he has waged on and off out of nowhere since I got here, somehow always having to do in some way with my Jewishness. Meanwhile both of these clowns are basing their attacks on false information. Wonderful.

Agbe- To steer the thread back from this precipice (further than I intended) which I am sorry to say I have caused, just on practical terms i wouldn't suggest pursuing it unless she shows herself very interested. Religion is a prickly thing and this is especially true of someone harboring doubts. If you come in the wrong way you can seriously jeopardize your friendship. And for what? The fact that the girl rejects god isn't going to whipe her mind clean of her feeling toward gay people. That is an issue of upbringing which will remain the same

meant to say i pushed the thread further to the precipice than intended. I meant to troll over the issue of course but it was supposed to be a minor troll, not a thread killer.

Santa, Yahweh is an approximation of YHWH, just as Jesus is an approximation of Hebrew Yeshua. It's as valid a pronunciation as any that conforms to the English sound system. Does that make it any less objectionable to you? And then we can get off this topic if you wish.

Frankly I find it pretentious and unnecessary. to me when it is used it is an attempt to garner some legitimacy and authenticity to talk that should be legitimized and authenticated by other means. Why pronounce it? It has no vowels so it can't be pronounced. What exactly is the point of trying besides having an actual name of our god to compete with the great lord Xenu's and Krishna's of the word. If I did believe steadfastly in god it would offend me even more. Why would you even want to address god by the equivalent to his first name? Is my position colored by a lifetime of being told not to pronounce the word on the paper (despite what Obi will tell you very few if any practicing Jews throw around the term Yahweh even though there is no prohibition on it) of course it is, but again I just don't see the point, and I (and many like me) find it obnoxious.

OK, there's about 2 pages of complete bull shit here that I just skipped over, so if you said something to me, I apologize for missing it.

One person did ask me why even bother helping if she's on her way there anyway: because I like helping my friends. And, even if it's what she wants, I'm not sure she (or anyone) would get there completely on their own when almost everyone they know is completely indoctrinated and risk of leaving could be ostracism from a lot of people.

It isn't your job to determine her beliefs. If you want to help, mention what you just said to us. Tell her you notice a change. Ask her if she's having doubts. Ask her if she wants you to help her go one way or the other.

If she loses her faith, that's her decision. Morality is found without religion/spirituality, now-a-days.

For the record, I say this as a Christian, myself. I'm just a big believer in people finding their own way to it. I'm always willing to help, but i don't like 'forcing' my ideas on others, because too many evangelicals tend to overdo it and force people to remain on the non-believing side out of spite.

people get there completely on their own all the time. Unless she is in a cult or you live in texas I don't think you need to worry about her having nowhere to turn to learn the atheist view of life. She might risk ostracism of a lot of people whether or not if you "help" her (I'm still trying to picture what this "help" is going to be) Its comical even thinking about it. What, candle light discussions that good things happen to bad people because shit happens? Attending the latest lecture from the renowned visiting athiest? Locking her in her room and mopping her brow with a sponge when she gets the cravings for church? I think the best thing you can do, if he family is really strict is to say you are around if she needs you. I hate proselytizing no matter who is doing it, if the girl finds that she doesn't want to believe anymore and she knows someone is in her corner then she will do what she believes.

And basically who are you to determine what she believes and how much she believes of it. Doubt is a part of many peoples faith and is not necessarily a cry for help from the nearest athiest to destroy the rest of he preconceived notions

Yes, I agree. I think people overestimated how much I was going to try to convince her. I was never planning on tying her to a chair and forcing her to watch anti-christian propaganda.

I was more thinking just talking about why I chose to be an atheist and how that doesn't make me a heathen lacking all morals. My question was really should I say anything at all.

or what fortknox said

Let me first say that as a Christian, I have gone through the same issues she has gone through, questioning the validity of your faith. I do think you should open up her eyes to different interpretations of the bible etc. etc.

I do also believe that theology (faith seeking understanding) is the best way to go. I took a few classes at Seattle University (a Jesuit institution) which helped me get a better grasp on what I believe to be the truth. Just like the bible is up to interpretation so is the meaning of the life of Jesus. My teacher led me to many different options, laid it all out on the table presenting different religions in comparison to the “faith”. My faith however lets me argue that it’s not ritual or going to church on Sunday that makes you strong in your faith. My faith causes me to believe in a relationship with the creator, much like a friendship.

Going back to the point though, I think you shouldn’t debunk her faith and paint it as a sort of…crutch or phony. Rather, you should explain multiple points of view and lead her to different places of worship so she can find her truth. After all, a truth that has been imposed by someone is only the other persons truth. I feel like the truth (in this case her faith) is being put to the test, and should be more of a search of the soul.

In short: provide her with other options and teachings, let her find it out herself. There’s no need for you to say your $.02… a faith is something best discovered on one’s own.
:)

I dont think it would be a problem to have religious discussions, understanding that it could piss her off

"And basically who are you to determine what she believes and how much she believes of it. Doubt is a part of many peoples faith and is not necessarily a cry for help from the nearest athiest to destroy the rest of he preconceived notions"

Well, that's unnecessarily antagonistic. She *did* come to me, the nearest atheist, and admit her struggles. She clearly doesn't feel comfortable talking to someone of faith about her problems because she hasn't been going to church. I may not be the most qualified person to help, but it seems wrong to ignore her.

Well, that's unnecessarily antagonistic

You just called what I wrote when I was defending myself "bullshit" and didn't mention my name next to statement you responded to, so unnecessarily antagonistic on my part is a bit rich.

But if she wants to talk to you why wouldn't you want to talk back? I don't think its much of a question that you discuss it if she wants you to.

she came to you drunk *mind you*
But I don't think you should ignore her, like you said. I don't think anyone can really be "qualified" to talk about "God" or "god".


You could make a prism one of your talking points…each of us is our own prism, we all see some form of light, but from that light we display colors and values. At either point where you turn the prism, the colors in essence will appear differently. Our lives are much the same, we all see the truth differently. There’s nothing wrong in questioning your faith, and there’s nothing wrong in exploring options. There is something I love though about the way I see things, we all have the concept of “free will”, the ability to move the prism any way we see fit, the colors will always fall into place, but by giving your own views, in a way, it places a black film in front of the light. Help her move her prism by looking at different angles, but don’t force her.

That's enough poetic like analogies for me.

Sandgoose doesn't usually talk about deep things on diplomacy forums, but when he does, he tries to make it thoughtful...

lol....claiming someone is "...unnecessarily antagonistic..." when approaching one of the most antagonistic, venom-producing topics on the threads is hillarious! FAIL!

As an athiest who came from primodial slime and will die and rot someday, I'm not sure how you can be responsible for the fiction of another's person's mind/belief system, since it is just random EMC in that sloop gelatin inside your skull...

"'sloop" = "sloppy"

I think that's the difference for you and agbe though krellin, with agbe there's a respect for other beliefs, you're just bashing the crap out of it. If you're right, you're right. If you're not, and Christians are, well....that would be unfortunate.

I'm not bashing anything. I'm not actually an athiest...but Abge claims to be...meaning that "spirituality" is nonsense (or else he isn't an athiest). I'm being blunt to make HIM think. He thinks it's OK to so easily try to dispose of another's beliefs...so I'm going to dispose of HIS beliefs, being that he comes from slime and will cease to exist in about 60 years.

*slaps face*

Sandgoose, I actually have lot of respect for people's beliefs, though it may not come across that way at times. I'm not afraid to A. Have my beliefs challenged, and B. Challenge other's who want to talk about beliefs. these threads are for big boys and girls, so if you aren't willing to have your dreams of universal love for your individual beliefs crushed, then don't put your views on the table.

Your narrow-mindedness is so evident it makes me laugh, Sandgoose.

Yes, krellin respects *people's* beliefs, not us computerized beings on Internet forums.

Case in point.