This is a friggin thread about the past, and who warrants greater honor and recognition than they get. You can't simultaneously invoke the unappreciated greatness of Polk while hand waving away anything that gets in the way of your narrative of him being great. And the issue of the lands of the Southwest are very much not simply a matter of the past, as anyone who doesn't live under a rock and has seen the issue of "illegal" immigration come to the fore recognizes. I'd advise you to read a single book in the field of Chicano studies to appreciate that.

"THE UNION WAS DOOMED TO FIGHT THE CIVIL WAR FROM THE SECOND THE FOUNDERS DIDN'T ADRESS SLAVERY IN THE CONSTITUTION AND LEFT THE MATTER DANGLING."

No it wasn't. See this is what is so annoying about your argument. You whine about hindsight history and then engage in it endlessly. How can you point to a past event and simply declare it "inevitable", thereby absolving people who engaged in policies which brought the country to disunion?

The point is, the sole reason you've elevated Polk is because of this conquest. In virtually all the other examples of 'conquerors' you've brought up, the greatness of these people has involved far more than just a war of aggression, or in some cases they didn't actually engage in wars of aggression at all. But you want to declare everyone's sins a wash because after all, nobody is perfect by the standards of our time. Sorry, that doesn't work. Polk wasn't great by the standards of *his* time.

"It is really strange that I should be accused of supporting the Confederates and be anti-Black in view of my strongly stated opinion, in a related thread, that this piece by Huxley, written in the immediate aftermath of the American Civil War was evil racism - http://www.readbookonline.net/readOnLine/23119/
I have formally quoted it in full, but here is a selection -"

More non sequitur bs from Fulham. More evading questions. I know you try to posture as some kind of anti-racist, but the source of your animus towards Huxley is his association with Darwin. If you were an anti-racist you wouldn't be a shameless apologist for a Confederacy which was formed for the expressed purpose of expanding slavery.

Now, will you answer my question and continue going on some rant about how Darwin is responsible for every problem of the 20th and 21st century?

The Indian Home Guards were made up of loyal Seminoles, Creeks, and Cherokees (after the latter deserted the rebels). In addition numerous other tribes such as the Kickapoo, Osage, Shawnee, Seneca, but particularly the Delaware, made up the Indian Home Guard units. The Apache fought the rebels in Arizona as well.

I really don't think anybody knows for sure whether the majority of Indians fought for the North or the South. Partisan accounts exist on both sides but I have yet to see any impartial data. As to the tribes you quote many were split in their support just like the nation itself (e.g., Seminole and Cherokee).
However, there is this on the treatment on the Indians by the Union during the war itself and what might have inspired it

Sand Creek - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sand_Creek_massacre
Bosque Redondo - http://www.southernnewmexico.com/Articles/Southeast/De_Baca/FortSumner/BosqueRedondo-destination.html
Sioux War of 1862 - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dakota_War_of_1862
And best of all this little gem -

“Is it true that the noble hearted man and Christian gentleman who as the agent of a democratic administration, removed the Cherokee Indians from their homes to the west of the Mississippi in such a manner as to gain the applause of the great and good of the land, is a fool?”
Lincoln, Abraham. “Speech at Peoria, September 17, 1852,” in Basler, Roy P.
(Ed.), The Collected Works of Abraham Lincoln, v.2. New Brunswick, NJ:
Rutgers University Press, 1953.

"I just don't like Presidents, no matter what party they're in, to claim jobs created during their terms. The economy creates jobs, not the Presidency."

+ 1 to goldfinger

His statement is slightly off. It should say: "I just don't like *politicians*, no matter what party they're in, to claim jobs created during their terms. The economy creates jobs, not *politicians*.

I think that the two quotes I have given from Lincoln are relevant when discussing past presidents. In my view this is one example of one who has been elevated beyond his station. Indeed I notice you have been discussing California, Lincoln put forward this view on the subject:
“why did Yankees almost instantly discover gold in California, which had been trodden upon and overlooked by Indians and Mexican greasers for centuries?”

Lincoln, Abraham. “Lecture on Discoveries, Inventions, and Improvements,
Springfield, Illinois, February 22, 1860” in Nicolay, John G., and Hay, John
(Ed.s), The Complete Works of Abraham Lincoln, v. 5. New York: Francis D.
Tandy Company, 1894.

Well, we have enough trolls...and trolling about trolls...and trolling about trolling about trolls...and threads discussing trolling about trolling about trolls...

So unless anyone besides Putin is REALLY that captivated by our discussion of Polk, I'm just going to drop it, since it seems everyone else has gone off on another track and the Polk bit is sort of sidestory to the main thread at this point.

Nevermind that the rebels paid off John Ross to conscript Indians into fighting with them. Nevermind that the Cherokees deserted in droves, particularly in the Battle of Caving Banks, when they learned they'd be fighting fellow Indians and runaway slaves among the heroic Opotheyahola's Home Guards. Nevermind that after the Confederates defeated the home guards, they murdered POWs. Nevermind that the Confederates in general had a policy of either murdering black POWs on sight, or selling them into slavery. So much so that that "racist" Lincoln implemented an eye for an eye policy which stated that for every black POW murdered, a Confederate POW would meet the same fate.

All Confederate war crimes and racism escape your attention.

The most underrated president is Coolidge, hands down. Carter's one main achievement, the Camp David Accords, gets all the praise it rightly deserves. Coolidge's restoration of honor to the office after Harding's shameful antics and general competence in governance is under-appreciated. But I'm sure our resident Stalinist will strongly disagree...

Coolidge was also super classy in more or less deliberately setting up Herbert Hoover to fail.

I mean, the Depression was coming, and Coolidge knew it, so he encouraged Hoover's candidacy and didn't run again himself just to have Hoover take that in the face. I'd do the same thing. But I realize it's kind of dickish.

Kinda odd to trash Harding while praising Coolidge. They were identical. Also not surprised you adore a President who slept half the day every day while the economy was going off a cliff. But hey you got your obligatory "Stalinist" jab in, so why bother making sense? Especially since the only requirement for being a 'good' President in far-right circles these days is to kiss the ass of the superrich and screw over everybody else. Coolidge certainly fits the bill.

I do like Calvin Coolidge for a few reasons.

He kept his mouth shut unless he had something important to say, which is unfortunately a lost art in today's rhetoric-packed political world. He once wrote:

"The words of a President have an enormous weight, and ought not to be used indiscriminately."

The economy boomed (only to crash as soon as he left office, I know)
He was a civil rights advocate
He also supported worker's rights and was opposed to child labor
He cut taxes
He refused to recognize the Soviet Union

What did the man do wrong? I agree with Invictus

A civil rights advocate? What are you smoking? He implemented the most racist immigration law in history, allowing only northern European immigrants to come into the US.

I'm surprised you, the resident warmonger-in-chief of the forum, would idolize the most isolationist President in our history, whose Secretary of State won the nobel peace prize for the Kellogg-Briand Pact outlawing war. Hilarious.

@ Invictus

"But I'm sure our resident Stalinist will strongly disagree..."

You are correct. He does strongly disagree.

@ Putin33

Coolidge spoke out in favor of the civil rights of African Americans and Catholics. He appointed no known members of the Ku Klux Klan to office. The Klan lost power during his presidency.

"In 1924, Coolidge responded to a letter that claimed the United States was a "white man's country:

....I was amazed to receive such a letter. During the war 500,000 colored men and boys were called up under the draft, not one of whom sought to evade it. [As president, I am] one who feels a responsibility for living up to the traditions and maintaining the principles of the Republican Party. Our Constitution guarantees equal rights to all our citizens, without discrimination on account of race or color. I have taken my oath to support that Constitution...."

He also signed the Indian Citizenship Act and pushed for anti-lynching legislation.

How is he not a civil rights advocate?

"I'm surprised you, the resident warmonger-in-chief of the forum"

I'm a warmonger? Since when?

Since always. That was one of the reasons you don't like RP anymore, he's too isolationist. You're constantly talking about the need for massive defense spending and said the way to peace was by "killing as many radical Muslims as possible". You're also an admirer of the traitor Patton, probably for his violent rhetoric. Yet you like Coolidge. LOL.

@ Putin33

I don't like Ron Paul anymore because I took a closer look at his proposed policies. The man is crazy. The libertarian message is refreshing and intoxicating, but I'm not falling for it anymore. I don't dislike isolationists or isolationism, but I do think we need to proactively defend ourselves in the event of an attack. There's a difference between isolationism and pacifism.

"You're constantly talking about the need for massive defense spending"

I only talk about defense spending when someone else brings it up. "Constantly talking about defense spending" would be acting like Tettleton does and posting three or four threads about the exact same subject at the same time.

"said the way to peace was by "killing as many radical Muslims as possible". "

I did say that and I stand by it, because that is the only way America can find peace. al-Qaeda and the radical Muslims that support them have proven to be a huge threat to American security. The best way to win a war is to kill as many of the bad guys as possible.

"You're also an admirer of the traitor Patton"

Patton? A traitor? Are you high? You are smearing the name of one of the greatest American heroes ever. What are you going to say next? Jane Fonda and Benedict Arnold are patriotic heroes?

"probably for his violent rhetoric"

I'm a fan of Patton because of his unwavering patriotism, staunch anti-communism, excellent military leadership, and the fact that he got shit done.

"Yet you like Coolidge."

I misspoke when I said I *like* Coolidge, and I apologize for that. I should have said that I agreed with Invictus when he said that Coolidge was the most underrated president ever.

Besides, I have no doubt that Coolidge would have defended the country had we been attacked during his presidency. Someone like Obama or Ron Paul? I have my doubts.

Patton loved the Nazis and said the US lost the war. He said the US had fought the wrong side and wanted to arm Waffen SS divisions to fight the Soviets. He was saying these type of things before the war was even over in 1944. He didn't bother disbanding the German units under his area of the occupation zone, which is why he was relieved of his command.

Overrated combat commander (Metz, Brest) and Naziphile to boot. A polo playing rich boy who never did an honest day's work in his life.

''Patton loved the Nazis'',

perhaps not http://www.eyewitnesstohistory.com/patton.htm closes with this:

Patton . . . I have great respect for the German soldiers; they are gallant men, but not for Nazis. Have the guards take him outside and have his picture taken and then we'll see what we will do with him. Also tell him that those bayonets on the guards' guns are very sharp."

It is true that he was a vehement anti-communist but that is not necessarily the same thing as ''loving the Nazis''.

yes Calvin Coolidge, who took pride in sleeping 12 hours a day and led the country into the worst economic malaise in American History is underrated

And here is another primary source on the liberation of Buchenwald:

''It seemed that Patton had become so angry at what he had seen in the camp that he scooted into the nearest major town, Weimar, broke the mayor of the town out, and told him he wanted every citizen up the next morning, ready to march to through Buchenwald so as to see what the German people were responsible for. The engineers were not to bury the dead until after the grand tour by the German townspeople.''
An extract from a much fuller piece at http://remember.org/witness/herder.html

It is true that he was a vehement anti-communist and, although this may qualify him as being a Nazi in some people's eyes, this view is not necessarily accurate.

Oh yeah, he was 'outraged' all right.

""This happened to be the feast of Yom Kippur, so they were all collected in a large, wooden building, which they called a synagogue. It behooved General Eisenhower to make a speech to them. We entered the synagogue, which was packed with the greatest stinking bunch of humanity I have ever seen. When we got about halfway up, the head rabbi, who was dressed in a fur hat similar to that worn by Henry VIII of England and in a surplice heavily embroidered and very filthy, came down and met the General . . . The smell was so terrible that I almost fainted and actually about three hours later lost my lunch as the result of remembering it."

""Evidently the virus started by Morgenthau and Baruch of a Semitic revenge against all Germans is still working. Harrison (a U.S. State Department official) and his associates indicate that they feel German civilians should be removed from houses for the purpose of housing Displaced Persons. There are two errors in this assumption. First, when we remove an individual German we punish an individual German, while the punishment is -- not intended for the individual but for the race.

Furthermore, it is against my Anglo-Saxon conscience to remove a person from a house, which is a punishment, without due process of law. In the second place, Harrison and his ilk believe that the Displaced Person is a human being, which he is not, and this applies particularly to the Jews, who are lower than animals."

""I am frankly opposed to this (prosecuting) war criminal stuff. It is not cricket and is Semitic. I am also opposed to sending POW's to work as slaves in foreign lands, where many will be starved to death.""

""I have been at Frankfurt for a civil government conference. If what we are doing (to the Germans) is 'Liberty, then give me death.' I can't see how Americans can sink so low. It is Semitic, and I am sure of it.""

""Berlin gave me the blues. We have destroyed what could have been a good race, and we are about to replace them with Mongolian savages."

""Actually, the Germans are the only decent people left in Europe. it's a choice between them and the Russians. I prefer the Germans.""

""There is a very apparent Semitic influence in the press. They are trying to do two things: first, implement communism, and second, see that all businessmen of German ancestry and non-Jewish antecedents are thrown out of their jobs."

""I would like it much better than being a sort of executioner to the best race in Europe.""

""I have been just as furious as you at the compilation of lies which the communist and Semitic elements of our government have leveled against me and practically every other commander. In my opinion it is a deliberate attempt to alienate the soldier vote from the commanders, because the communists know that soldiers are not communistic, and they fear what eleven million votes (of veterans) would do.""

"SS means no more in Germany than being a Democrat in America."

Not surprised Fulham would rise to the defense of this filthy fascist dandy.

Well, it wasn't exactly as if the president had to worry about a sudden nuclear war or a 24 hour news cycle in the 1920s. It's also wildly unfair to blame him for the Depression (not just because, as always, the economy is not really under a president's control) since the crisis was the result of events all over the world. That would be like blaming Obama for the coming Depression if the Euro collapses. It may play with partisans, but it's not fair. And as for the sleep, that was the result of his grief at his son's death. Coolidge was an imperfect president and not a "great" one by any means, but I was under the impression this thread was about under-appreciated presidents and I think he certainly qualifies for that.

How is he 'underappreciated'? Every far-right extremist adores him. The concentration of wealth and unregulated stock market that took place under his watch did contribute to the economic collapse. You all can continue pretending like government policy has no economic effect, but that's pretty silly.

So Patton had some awful beliefs. He was still a competent general who helped DEFEAT the Nazis you claim he supported. The guy got the job done, and that's what's important. I'm sure we can find a lot of left-wing heroes of yours, Putin33, who held some vile personal convictions but still were useful in accomplishing what really mattered.

Yeah Calvin Coolidge was a trash president, you don't have to be Putin to understand that.

The good presidents:

Washington
Lincoln
TR
Taft
Wilson
FDR
Eisenhower
LBJ


You know I was just now thinking about what it would mean to actually become President.

That has to be the biggest ego boost in the universe. I'd never really thought about it before, but when you get elected you instantly know you have become a historical figure.

Blimey Putin what a nasty man. Thank you for pointing it out to me.

but nobodys perfect, its true

washington started the french and indian war

lincoln wasnt *actually* an abolitionist

tr was an imperialist
so was taft

wilson was an antisemite if im not mistaken

fdr was kind of a dictator

eisenhower started the cold war, in a way

lbj wasted a lot of money

I'm not pretending that at all. But if you thin that one can only be a far-right extremist to think that a quiet, humble man has been under-appreciated as a president then there's not really much point talking to you, is there? No, once again anything that isn't from a purely leftist perspective is both wrong and illegitimate.

I am slightly concerned where Putin got his Patton quotes. Almost the complete set appears on this very right wing site: www.rense.com/general85/pats.htm. moreover, there is an unfortunate sequence in common between the hate site and Putin's post.

I am sure that he wouldn't mind providing a clarification for us, it does seem a strange coincidence. My suspicions were aroused when he gave quotes without providing a citation. All a bit unfortunate really.

Yes, he 'contributed' by overrunning vastly outnumbered and inferior forces, but when he actually had to do some real fighting he failed with significant loss of his own men's lives, whom he didn't care about. Real hero.

Incidentally, Benedict Arnold contributed to the continental army's victory as well.