I fail to see how that makes Communism any better.

Try reading. ;).

It was addressed at the claim that atrocities don't happen in major capitalist countries, and that atrocities are really an aspect of socialism. Which is a misrepresentation.

Basically eicom you need to stop being a smart ass.

@orathaic
" Tallfred - the world is what you make of it. The Soviet Union is not an ideal socialist paradise, but you're blind if you can't see any advantage in their policies. You're also blind if you can't see any failings of the capitalist system."
True enough. At the same time you can excuse me for not wanting my country to go down the road of civil war and destruction that Russia and China went down for pitifully small gain, if any. The reason for communism's bloody record is simple. The talk of communism is always in the most beautiful terms, but at base it comes down to one thing: "Take from everyone else and kill them if you have to." Capitalism with all its many failings does not fall to that low level.

Pitifully small gain? What's all the talk about China being a world power again? What were the conditions of China prior to CCP rule? What were the conditions of Russia and the Soviet republics prior to industrialization? Do you really think a feudal Tsarist Russia would have defeated Germany in WWII when they couldn't defeat the Kaiser in WWI? Look at the standard of living of the Soviet republics before and after Soviet rule. What nation led the world in science and put the first cosmonaut in space?

Pitifully small gain, really.

Capitalism is so great even wealthy underpopulated homogeneous Iceland managed to have a complete financial meltdown.

I never suggested you go down the same route, i do suggest you learn from lessons from their history and choose to organise not a communist state, but a local distributive economy which is still bound by the competitive advantages of a capitalism - a system where individuals who share a stake in their local economy are motivated to make things work by both monetary rewards and communal benefits.

I agree with tallfred. Communist nations such as the USSR and China are notorious for killing many. Plus communism cuts out individualism in many ways. Also Capitalist nations in general have a better economy than communist nations.

Can not / WILL NOT bother to read all of the idiotic rationales for Communism. I only need *ONE* to understand why Communism is IDIOTIC.

* It has failed every time is has been tried. Period.

Cuba is about the last Communist nation on earth (puh-lease...China is going Capitalist as fast as they possibly can...) and I have NEVER, EVER, EVER seen anyone get on some tin-foil raft and try to escape TO Cuba. Fuck Communism, unless your goal is abject poverty, a complete lack of inspiration to succeed and a failure to grow as a civilization. And, for the record, any success you will point to in USSR or other so-called "Communist" nations is ONLY based upon their being a ruling class (which is therefore NOT communist...) and the threat of violence to advance in technology, etc (again, NOT communist, by pure defintion.)

THEREFORE, any asshole that makes the claim that Communism is good **for realistic human beings** is just a God-damned fool who apparently has never read a history book, never studied basic human behavior, etc etc etc.

Until somone can point out a *successful* Communist society -- where ALL THE PEOPLE equally prosper (which, by definition, would happen), then SHUT THE FUCK UP.


Enough said.

Krellin, that's a dumb argument. Every society that doesn't currently exist failed, and that includes many other different government types than communism. If past evidence is any indication, every society will fail.

orangefarm +∞

Point to *ONE* communist society that has succeeded.....not a dumb argument. It's an obvious one. China, as a matter of fact, has existed for thousands of years as a single nation. They have, over the years, evolved in their form of governing. They evolve based upon their status comapred to neighbors (militarily, economically, etc.). So, your argument is DUMB, my your, small minded friend. TRY AGAIN.

Communism - put forth as the best form of government - is retarded. I *will* confess that there may be brief periods of time where Communism can give the appearance of success....but for a nation to last, it must inevitably be replaced. Thus, the concept that Communism is the best is stupid, exactly BECAUSE, **AS YOU POINT OUT** all governments have failed. Therefore, no government known to man is perfect; no governmnet known to man is best...and all of the assholes that try to say THIS is right and THAT is wrong - universally - are ignorant...no....ignorant is too kind. They are STUPID.

Perhaps this broader view of historical governments is too complex a thought for you. I expect your inane and pointless insults to follow...and I pity you, because I used your own god damned argument against you...

It's real rich when in the middle of a US induced global financial crisis with countries being bailed out by the IMF left and right that people are claiming capitalism is a superior system. I'm sorry which country is still on pace for 9.6% growth? What's that? Communist-led China?

State-Owned Enterprises also posted a 40% increase in profits.
http://cnbusinessnews.com/chinas-state-owned-enterprises-post-nearly-40-rise-in-profits-last-year/

In 2006, the State Council announced the following:

"[T]he State should solely own, or have a majority share in, enterprises engaged in power generation and distribution, oil, petrochemicals and natural gas, telecom and armaments. The State must also have a controlling stake in the coal, aviation, and shipping industries.... Central SOEs should also become heavyweights in sectors including machinery, automobiles, IT, construction, iron and steel, and non-ferrous metals."

http://www.chinadaily.com.cn/china/2006-12/19/content_762056.htm

The government also ruled out privatization as recently as March 2011.

"We have made a solemn declaration that we will not employ a system of multiple parties holding office in rotation; diversify our guiding thought; separate executive, legislative and judicial powers; use a bicameral or federal system; or carry out privatisation," NPC chairman Wu Bangguo told nearly 3000 delegates.

"We must maintain the correct political orientation and never waver on key issues of principle such as the fundamental system of the state. If we waiver, not only will there be no socialist modernisation to speak of, but the achievements of development will also be lost, and it is possible that the state could sink into the abyss of internal disorder."

http://www.theaustralian.com.au/news/world/china-rules-out-political-reform/story-e6frg6so-1226020720813

" China, as a matter of fact, has existed for thousands of years as a single nation"

If by "single nation" you mean was divided between three competing governments as recently as the 1940s, then you're right. And when talking about the "single nation", you ignore the inconvenient periods respectively known as the Warring States period and the 370 year "Period of Disunity" - then sure.

'bailed out by the IMF"....which is funded by....uh....CAPITALISM DUMBASS! Get a life, you idiot.

The IMF bails out socialist holes like Greece, like <name your African Dictatorship>, etc. You living in another fucking world. It's impossible to even have a rational discussion with someone like Putin, who has never been able to stick to the *complete* set of facts...he picks and chooses this thought or that, this stat or that to try to support his claim. But *overall*....I'm still waiting for MY answer: NAME THE SUCCESSFUL COMMUNIST NATION! It doesn't exist...IN PART BECAUSE HUMAN BEINGS ARE CORRUPT.

I admit....as a *PHILOSOPHY* communism is the perfect ideal....each according to blah blah blah and it assumes everyone works to the best of their ability. In REALITY, it DOES NOT and NEVER HAS functioned, because HUMAN BEINGS as a whole are LAZY and CORRUPT. Idiots like Putin fail to acknowledge the horrifying history of humanity....Fools and morons...

Putin - you stupid jackass....THANK YOU for pointing out that even China, maybe the oldest nation around, can't be consistent. Has been three nations divided, blah blah blah. YOU MAKE MY POINT, DUMBASS! ***NO*** government is perfect. If China hasn't figured that out yet, then why the fuck haven't YOU? THEY have tried Communism...and abandoned it. Idiot.

Yes, the specifics of any nations governmental system will change over time. Whether because of revolution or democratic change.

Of course democracy is not contrary to a communist system, it is possible to run a communist society where the people for vote a communist party and it is no worse or better morally than a capitalist party.

Why is there no successful communist party in the US? Because it is unpopular. Poor press, support for the capitalists from the capital owning rich. Those who have the most to lose from a communist party re-possessing their property (whether democrat or republican, both are supported by big industrialists)

What have we learned from the Russian experiment in marxism? Mostly that Russia will continue to be Russia whatever the government choose to identify itself as.

It a huge amount of damage to the reputation of communism in general, even though Marx specifically states that communism wouldn't work in russia (because it was a rural peasant society, rather than an urban worker society - and Marx was talking about a workers paradise...) Russia remained totalitarian using fear and violence to control it's population. Russia today is still the same.

America on the other hand remains in the hand of the rich.... a very different society and culture. I'm glad i live in neither.

krellin, lay off the caps lock. It just makes you look foolish.

@Krellin: the communist party of China didn't abandon Communism, it choose to take advantage of a capitalist privatization of companies because this is an efficient way to organise an economy.

This just means that they don't believe in a centrally controlled economy, not that they have embraced the greed fueled 'self-fish-ness virtue' ideal proposed by ideological capitalists.

Compromise in all things allows you to take advantage of the best in each kind of system.

@krellin, what is a successful nation, and by which metrics do you judge it to be so?

Naww...it just points out what I want pointed out. Thank you for not having any legitimate criticism other than my (supposed) offense of caps locks. It proves I am right.

As for Orthaic -- You can NOT compare Russia to Communism, because they were NOT Communist, by a strict definition. By a strict definition, there is NO leadership that is above it all, that rules the people....that is NOT Communism.

I also -- perhaps surprising to many of you that know me - find the American system as it is currently formed detestable. We have Corporate Fiefdoms. We have Business Royalty, where this Lord or Lady sits on YOUR Board, and I sit on YOUR board, and all of the corporate Boards award each other for....for nothing other than being on a board! A CEO can **utterly and completely** fail, cause a company to lose millions...billions...and when they are fired, they will walk away with millions. It is no worse than the system we pretended to abandon when we fought for our freedom from England.

But....to the primary point....communism is an absolute failure over and over and over and over and over and over again. MOSTLY because HUMAN BEINGS ARE INCAPABLE of functioning successfully in such a system.

@ORTHAic -- If the "Communist part of China....choose to take advantage of capitalism" THEN IT ISN'T FUCKING COMMUNISM ANYMORE YOU STUPID FUCKING DUMBASS.

God....give me a fucking break! You idiots constantly refute your own arguments. IN ONE SENTENCE this time...and yet you think you made a point. Read your god-damned comments for LOGIC before you post it, moron.

Clearly, the supporters of Communism in this discussion don't have a shred of logic...or intellect...to stand on. Good night, fools. argue amongst yourself how a communist nation that is no longer communist means that communism is a good idea and...er...uh.....fucking morons....

haha, nice rage, krellin.

Putin, a true communistic society is where there is really NO government--it's where the people run their own communities in which everybody has the same (or extremely close to the same) living conditions, and in which if somebody happens to get more than somebody else, they will give up what they have so that the others will be "equal" to them. This is why communism doesn't work; people are greedy and lazy in nature, as krellin has already pointed out.
There Is one instance that I can think of where a communist society worked though, and that would be the Native America tribes. Because of the tribes' relative small size to the populations of the countries in the world today, everybody in a tribe was needed for it to survive, and so if one person had less than another, the other would help out the needier more willingly. However, in large societies like the ones in the world today, communism would require EVERYbody to do that for everybody else, and that is why it is unpopular and unworkable.

yes, Krellin because the world is black and white. Very good.

I didn't refute your arguement, i agreed the governments will always change.

Krellin you're clearly not interested in discussion. You have no patients, i'm glad you're going to leave.

Why can't you post without screaming and namecalling?

"which is funded by....uh....CAPITALISM DUMBASS! Get a life, you idiot."

LOL, what? You realize the point was that capitalist economies in Europe need to get bailed out by money provided by the combined resources of their governments. How is this a victory for capitalism again?


"The IMF bails out socialist holes like Greece"

And Ireland and Iceland, and probably Spain, Portugal and Italy eventually. Who knew that the center-right government that governed the Ireland for decades and has the lowest corporate tax rate in Europe was "socialist". You don't have the foggiest clue what socialism or communism is, or what its theoreticians have said about how a capitalist society is transformed into a communist one. You don't have a clue about basic history. All you do is scream and shout. Take a sedative for christ's sake.

"NAME THE SUCCESSFUL COMMUNIST NATION! It doesn't exist"

China is a successful Communist-led nation. As is Vietnam. As is Cuba. They succeed despite being in a world dominated by hostile capitalist countries and in one case, being terrorized and blockaded by the largest military power in the world. In another case a small socialist country defeated that same superpower and its corrupt, rightwing military government puppet regime. That points to the superiority of the system.

Prior to the market "reforms" implemented by Gorbachov which purposely destroyed the USSR, the entire socialist bloc was successful. The Soviet Union in the 1970s had caught up with the United States militarily. The socialist countries outperformed the most generous European welfare states on various human development indicators, despite being poorer overall.

"a true communistic society is where there is really NO government--it's where the people run their own communities"

how is that NO government? the people run the community. Those who naturally take leadership in any group of individuals will become the government by virtue of reputation and proof of success.

China cannot currently be classified as a communist nation. Why? Because they have freed up their markets--gevernment doesn't control them, people do. That is a very capitalist trait. So even though they still have a dictatorship, they are not communist. Sorry, Putin

krellin, I am no Putin fan, but you are an idiot, and fun to watch, don;t go to sleep, keep on spewing simplistic garbage in this thread

orathaic--i meant no gevernment like, nobody is the executive decision maker, or nobody elects people or anything