I'm not claiming you don't care about 'misery', I'm claiming you're equating two things that aren't the same. Your attempts at false equivalence, like the rightwing attempt to portray the NSDAP as 'leftist', are bogus arguments that need to be fought. This left/right argument does matter, because the American Right were emphatically pro-Nazi in the 1930s and the rightwing regimes of Europe all collaborated quite happily with National Socialism. Attempts by the right to ignore their past and/or lay the crimes of the fascists at the feet of the left and/or claim that the NSDAP were just like the USSR will not be allowed to slide without resistance. And attempts by neutral and/or apolitical commentators to do much the same thing will also be fought.

Putin, you said that ''I don't care''. You went further and said -''If you don't care then don't read and don't comment.''

In view of this I feel that I must ask you:

Could you please clarify and tell me in plain terms what you have accused me of not caring about, thank you.

Hey, Putin, I see you fixed your time-machine and have been making trips to memory lane again :)

Didn't they tell you communism is dead - turned out it was a very crappy system.

You see - trying to create a society where everyone is equal goes against the laws of nature and eliminates competition as a concept altogether - which breed long-term mediocrity, laziness and stupidity.

Looking at how you think and write I can understand why you'd like such a system ... but it doesn't really work that well for people with better motivation, skills and capacity.

I don't want to be equal with someone like you, sorry... and in fact we're not :P

I don't believe those figures as they contradict what my economics textbook and history textbook say.


Also Putin:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/German%E2%80%93Soviet_Axis_talks

Stalin considered them to be close enough.

And? Nixon (hardcore anticommunist) got into talks with China for cooperation vs the USSR.

I would think being on a diplomacy site would have had you figure out that personal feelings or ideology have little to do with Realpolitik.

China is communist???
They're privatization of big buisness and income desparity between the classes put the more right wing the Hitler.

Ok. Since you apparently don't understand history, I'm going to give you a couple lookups.

First one is Richard Nixon.

Second one is Mao Zedong.

Third one is the Cultural Revolution.

Then come back and apologize for shitting up the forums with a response that is patently stupid. (hint, 1970s vs 2010!)

I don't get it.

@ Fulham

I didn't 'accuse' you of anything - you said "Was Hitler or Stalin to the left or to the right, who the fuck really cares? Isn't it sufficient to say that they both ran totallarian regimes? Thus their similarities count for much more that their differences?"

I said you don't "care" whether or not the NSDAP or the USSR were left or right, since they're both "totalitarian" and their similarities 'count for much more' than their differences.

This is not an accusation, this is not a misinterpretation, this is word for word what you wrote.

@ Ivanov

"You see - trying to create a society where everyone is equal goes against the laws of nature and eliminates competition as a concept altogether - which breed long-term mediocrity, laziness and stupidity.

Looking at how you think and write I can understand why you'd like such a system ... but it doesn't really work that well for people with better motivation, skills and capacity.

I don't want to be equal with someone like you, sorry... and in fact we're not :P"

Well, if this brilliant 'argument' of yours is any reflection of the inherent 'superiority' of the capitalist system, it is small wonder that the global capitalist economy is falling apart with the worst financial crisis since the Great Depression. It is small wonder that the industrial working class in the US and other capitalist countries has been destroyed, replaced with menial low pay/no benefit service jobs. It is little surprise that real wages in the US have stagnated or declined since the 1970s, and that its house of cards economic 'growth' has been based on borrowed money. It is small wonder that the US and other leading capitalist countries don't produce anything of value anymore, and leave the producing to China and the third world. It is small wonder that products are getting crappier and crappier, as corporations make profits not by being innovative and increasing quality, but by cutting corners and cutting costs. It's no wonder the leading capitalist power has a third rate education system, with its children becoming dumber and dumber, because the capitalists don't want to be bothered investing in an education system. It's not a surprise that capitalist overproduction is destroying the planet with story after story of mass animal deaths, desertification, clear-cutting of rainforests, rising global temperatures, and the melting of the Arctic.
And it is indeed not very surprising that people living in ex-Communist countries express nostalgia for the old system in poll after poll, as their living standards plummeted while their predatory political class fell over themselves trying to get the crumbs their western masters threw at them.

There will always be janissaries like you telling us that the system is wonderful, the masters are forgiving and benevolent, and telling millions of people who toil endless hours for poverty wages that with just more hard work, they too can become a well paid yes-man like Ivo Ivanov. But you see nobody believes it, because the world doesn't operate like your Ayn Rand novel. In the real world the capitalist system ruins the lives of the many for the profit of the few.

"Stalin considered them to be close enough."

Which is why throughout the 1939-1940 period the USSR was arming itself and preparing for war with Germany. It's also why the USSR had made numerous offers to the western powers for an anti-Axis alliance, but were spurned every time.

But since the western powers made a pact with Hitler in Munich, does that mean Chamberlain and Roosevelt were ideologically close to the Nazis? After all, the Munich conference was his idea.

"I don't get it."

Nixon had talks with China long before any market reforms. On the contrary. in 1971 China under Mao's leadership was just recovering from the most intense period of the Cultural Revolution, a period where ideological purity was supposedly in high demand.

By "his idea" I mean Roosevelt's. Roosevelt's scheme was to organize a great power conference with France, UK, Italy, and Germany in which France would be freed of their obligations to defend Czechoslovakia from aggression. The four-powers would recommend a plebiscite for the Sudatens, Czechoslovakia would refuse to carry it out and thus France would not have to come to Prague's aid.

Obviously then, Roosevelt was a Nazi right? And Churchill was a fascist, because he said lots of good things about Mussolini at one time.

Brilliant logic.

Putin - if you want to change the world the right approach is to study hard, work hard, get rich, influence your environment.

I live in an ex-Communist country and I know what I'm talking about. You don't. You've read some crazy stuff and keep repeating it like a radio.

The best thing that has happened to this place is nit having to deal with brain-washed ideologists. Money is not perfect - but at least it makes for clear rules and no bulshit artists who are useless but will advance in life simply due to being a "true communist and party member".

Yes - people are nostalgic - because they are lazy and stupid and don't know better. Similar to how Moses waited for a generation thinking like slaves to die before creating a new state we'll also have to wait for a generation change.

"Putin - if you want to change the world the right approach is to study hard, work hard, get rich, influence your environment."

Like I said, promote the myth that hard work will get you a seat at the boss's table. Because those millions of workers who get paid a $1 a day aren't working hard enough. Those families who sacrifice everything for their kid's to go to college only to not be able to afford it aren't working hard.

"I live in an ex-Communist country and I know what I'm talking about. You don't."

The gusano defense. Talk about lazy, that's as lazy of an argument as you can make. The world is filled with exiles and traitors with political axes to grind. Such people want to impress their new bosses with by demonstrating as much self-loathing as possible. Bulgaria in particular is notorious for such people and notorious for stabbing its brothers in the back.

"Money is not perfect - but at least it makes for clear rules and no bulshit artists who are useless but will advance in life simply due to being a "true communist and party member"."

As opposed to advancing in life for being born into a well connected rich family (who probably got rich by stealing a public company through corrupt privatization), and sitting on your ass all day while you profit off the backs of other people's labor. It's amazing how you capitalist ideologues have convinced yourselves that your beloved market is a meritocracy, and that your fortunate lot in life is not due to luck but somehow due to your inherent superiority.

Putin,

Well that was some of what I wrote, here is the rest:

In my view the urge to label them of the left or the right tells us more about those who wish to impose the labels than it informs any dispassionate study of history.

To selectively quote in order to deliberately remove context does not make you clever pal.

So come on then Putin please do tell what it is I don't care about?

Four out of five millionares are self-made. We live in a service based economy; industrial work is largely a thing of the past. And why did China voluntarily choose the free market system and prosper under it? compared to Mao's botched Communism when tens of millions died from a man made famine? The market doesn't make those kinds of mistakes. Individuals, even committees, can't regulate complex dynamic markets perfectly. They make mistakes. Why did Russia have to chain Eastern European states to Communism through military coersion? Why did they rebel if Communism is so great? The need for groups like Solidarity shows that Communism is not the system for the Proletariat worker. The best system is the supervised free market with unregulated pay checks and private ownership of businesses. Cut out the truly appalling aspects like child labor, but don't kill the whole system.

"In my view the urge to label them of the left or the right tells us more about those who wish to impose the labels than it informs any dispassionate study of history.

To selectively quote in order to deliberately remove context does not make you clever pal."

This so-called added 'context' doesn't diminish or negate your original point in the slightest, so I don't know what you're carrying on about here. How does you claiming we're "imposing labels" in any way change your other remarks about how you "don't fucking care" about whether the NSDAP or the USSR are labeled left or right? If anything it just supports your earlier comments.

You're claiming I distorted your words when I clearly didn't. It's all a bunch of bs false equivalence.

"So come on then Putin please do tell what it is I don't care about?"

You're just being annoying now. I quoted your words back to you. I've repeatedly shown what you don't care about. Stop this disingenuous game of yours.

"The market doesn't make those kinds of mistakes"

The list of famines under capitalism is a mile long. Ask the Bengalis in the 1940s or the Irish in the 1840s if they buy the nonsense you're selling.

"10s of millions" you just made up. Why stop at 10s of millions? Why not go for 100s of millions? Where do you draw the line at how high you'll concoct numbers out of whole cloth?

@putin - dude, if you believe that the only way for people to do well is to steal or be born into it... that's just sad.

My parents are regular people, but smart enough to push me and teach me well. I went to a US university on full scholarship (thank you to all US tax-payers for this), did reasonably well in all three jobs so far, now I'm a co-owner and manager of a software company and would estimate my net worth in property and capital to be around 250K. If I do well and have reasonable luck I'll be at a million in a few years. Which is a lot for Bulgaria - and was something my parents could never dream of simply because it wasn't allowed.

Tell me:
1. What exactly is wrong with that?
2. What's stopping you from doing well?
3. Have you considered a move to Cuba or North Korea? Do you think you'll like it there?

Btw, China are not really communists. That's the name they use - but they don't care about the ideals of communism - they care about the success of China as a nation-state. It's what they've done for a few thousand years now - the individual is not important, the Empire is. Communism just sounded nice and had some useful concepts (e.g. everyone is equal... meaning everyone is expendable).

Btw, there's nothing wrong with rich parents leaving their kids better off. That's actually part of the whole idea.

"Ask the Bengalis in the 1940s or the Irish in the 1840s if they buy the nonsense you're selling. "

Is that really the best you can do? Citing two examples of colonial powers using the power of the state to force their captives to export food 'proves' that capitalism results in famine?

You have no idea what you're talking about. The Irish famine was due to laissez faire policies, not 'using the power of the state'. If you want to give you a dissertation about capitalism induced famines, I'll get to it. Not at the moment however.

"it is small wonder that the global capitalist economy is falling apart with the worst financial crisis since the Great Depression..."

Funny, but many of your arguments in this tirade - particularly those about easy credit and lack of production - could've been lifted straight from an Austrian economics textbook.

"Looking at how you think and write I can understand why you'd like such a system"

Knocking an ESLer for bad grammar is just plain tacky.

"It's no wonder the leading capitalist power has a third rate education system, with its children becoming dumber and dumber, because the capitalists don't want to be bothered investing in an education system."

Here in California, a minimum of 60% of the state budget is dedicated to education by law. We have the highest paid teachers in the country, yet the LA Unified School District has a 50% dropout rate. Lack of investment (well, monetary investment at least) is obviously not the problem.

"Bulgaria in particular is notorious for such people and notorious for stabbing its brothers in the back."

For someone so quick to accuse others of Racism, you sure can dish it out.

"He's so stupid he thinks it's an insult" :)

nationality, I mean...

"What's stopping you from doing well?"

How do know that I'm not? Why are you so eager to make this argument personal? You launched into personal attacks as soon as you started posting, and now want to make this a battle of resumes.

Most people do not make generalized statements about political economy and the circumstances and obstacles facing other people on the basis of personal anecdotal evidence. I don't blame you for doing so, since your argument doesn't have much else to go on, so you have to post your resume and brag about how wealthy you are. But calling other people - especially your own people - lazy and stupid because you were lucky enough to get a full scholarship to an American university speaks volumes about the mindset of capitalist ideologues.

Furthermore, since we're on the level of personal anecdotes now, I know that the educational system built by the Communists in Bulgaria is responsible for much of your good fortune in getting into an American university free of charge. Friends and acquaintances from Bulgaria uniformly jumped straight into 2nd or 3rd year Calculus at my undergraduate university because the mathematics they do at the gymnasium level is on par with what we do at the university level. That's how 'terrible' it was in socialist Bulgaria and how great it is here.

It won't surprise me at all if you believe that anybody can just waltz up and get a free ride to an American university, if only they're as smart and hard working as you.

"What exactly is wrong with that?"

What is wrong with someone who owns a computer software company and has the free time to berate people on a diplomacy forum having $250K in wealth, which is more than twice the average salary of a physician in the United States? I don't know, do you think your value to society is worth more than 5 times that of the average worker in the United States? Judging from your other comments about how awesome of a person you think you are, it wouldn't surprise if you thought you were twice as valuable as a physician. I wouldn't care if people had $250 in wealth, if millions of other people working full work weeks weren't making poverty wages. And if there weren't millions of people who couldn't afford the basic necessities of life. It strikes me as fundamentally unfair that someone with your free time has the amount of money you do, while hard working people have to struggle to get by. But I'm sure your attitude is that you got yours, screw everyone else.

"3. Have you considered a move to Cuba or North Korea? Do you think you'll like it there?"

This is really pathetic. Going the 'love it or leave it' route? Yes I have considered a move to Cuba or China, but I have family here and I think it'd be a cop out to emigrate when it should be my responsibility to work for change here, in the belly of the beast. Lots of people around the world are counting on progressive minded people in the US to be a force for change here. Lots of Americans are counting on it too.

"Btw, China are not really communists. That's the name they use - but they don't care about the ideals of communism - they care about the success of China as a nation-state. It's what they've done for a few thousand years now - the individual is not important, the Empire is. Communism just sounded nice and had some useful concepts (e.g. everyone is equal... meaning everyone is expendable)."

What capitalist country do you know has its most profitable industries under the control of the state and operates according to directive plans? Why are capitalists still not admitted into the CCP, in fact proposals to allow them have been rejected multiple times? Why did Jiang Zemin have to shut down leftist journals that criticized his attempts to bourgeoisify the party? The financial system is controlled by the state and directly effects how the market sectors of the economy operate. Conservative pundits are lamenting the reversal of privatization and market reforms since the new leadership took power.

http://www.heritage.org/Research/Commentary/2009/05/Liberalization-in-Reverse

What capitalist country, or fake communist one, stresses Marxist ideological education at the university level? http://eng.hi138.com/?i113263
China is a boiling cauldron of nationalism. The leadership, far from encouraging nationalism, has kept the lid on it.

And your cheapshot about equality meaning 'expendable' is pretty rich, considering how much capitalists are known to value human life. http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2007/feb/15/india.sarahboseley

"Btw, there's nothing wrong with rich parents leaving their kids better off. That's actually part of the whole idea."

Believe that if you want, but don't pretend like you're simultaneously an advocate of meritocracy.

"Funny, but many of your arguments in this tirade - particularly those about easy credit and lack of production - could've been lifted straight from an Austrian economics textbook."

The Austrians make economics textbooks? In order to do that there'd have to be Austrian economists, wouldn't there? Considering they're universally laughed at in the academy because of their refusal to do any kind of rigorous economic work based on the real world, most of them spend their time blogging or writing about philosophy rather than doing anything applied to economics.

The difference between me and Austrians - besides the many obvious ones - is that the Austrians believe a capitalist economy can operate any other way than it does. Their version of capitalism is a utopian fantasy that can never be implemented.

"Here in California, a minimum of 60% of the state budget is dedicated to education by law. We have the highest paid teachers in the country, yet the LA Unified School District has a 50% dropout rate. Lack of investment (well, monetary investment at least) is obviously not the problem."

Yet California spends less than the national average in per pupil expenditures and has significantly higher pupil to teacher ratios than other states (spent $8,952 / pupil in 2007 compared to a national average of $9,693; have 48 teachers per 1,000 pupils compared to the national average of 64). In terms of staff, California is dead last in the number of staff per pupil - 90 total staff per 1,000 pupils compared to a national average of 125.

When cost of living in California is taken into account, California ranks significantly lower in teacher salaries -16th. Teachers salaries per pupil is also below the national average, and lower than several other large states.

http://www.nsf.gov/statistics/seind10/c8/c8s1o11.htm
http://www.ed-data.k12.ca.us/articles/article.asp?title=california%20comparison

"For someone so quick to accuse others of Racism, you sure can dish it out."

Quick? All I did was cite CNN and libertarian magazine articles outing your heroes as racists - their words, not mine. I don't know what your definition of racism is, but it's probably narrower than your definition of Holocaust denial. Sorry if making commentary about Bulgaria's reputation for backstabbing is 'racist', but that's the general feeling among Bulgaria's neighbors.