"Then you agree that there are property rights that do not amount to theft as Jamie said. The disagreement in not whether individuals have property rights, but to what extent goverments can infringe upon those rights."

No, I don't agree with your strawman. The tablecloth is made with cloth is that is the Property of the People, so technically it is the peoples. But the state doesn't care enough to want to own it. Unless your grandmother started running her own business with tablecloths and forcing her kids to make tablecloths for her enterprise or something, the state doesn't care.

The flax is not "her own".

tell it like it is Puty Baby.

"their theory only exists in an Econ 101 textbook or an Ayn Rand novel."_____ That's cold. That's real cold.

I think you should look at what a strawman is. I have not created an argument for you merely given you an instance in which property right would be clear. You're still saying that the government can take whatever it wants. That's infringing upon property rights. Merely because the government doesn't care to take grandma's tablecloth doesn't give them the right to do so in the first place.

"Wrong. Fail. Seriously, dude... According to the World Health Organisation, TWO THIRDS of the world's population are either under-fed or starving. Two thirds. And you have the fucking brass neck to claim that the present system basically works. Seriously."

The vast majority of the countries on the "Hunger Index" appear to be run by authoritarian dictators, and hence are *not* market economies. Meanwhile, which countries are the biggest net exporter of food? Last time I checked, the US, Canada, and Australia.

I have the "brass balls" to state - unequivocally - that nations with market economies treat their populations better than other nations. If you have an example that proves otherwise, bring it forth.

And I have to say I find it a bit insulting that you're attempting to lay the dead of some authoritarian fucktard at capitalism's door.


"However they know they cannot really "choose" to just stop working and lie around on the couch because their income will drop to a point where they cannot pay their rent/mortgage. They have _no_choice_ but to keep going to work. "

And I guess this is where we diverge, because I *don't have a problem with that*. If someone isn't going to contribute to society - be it a market economy or a centrally planned one - why the hell should the society bother to feed or clothe them? If someone is going to lay around on the couch all day and get a roof over their head, fed three meals, ect, they *why would anyone work*? Why would the home builders build? Why would the farmers farm? Why would the guys in the power plants keep the electrons flowing?

You seem to feel that society has an obligation to give people stuff even if they *make an active decision to give nothing back*. I'm not talking about people who literally *cannot* survive without assistance, but people who just choose to sit around and mooch. Am I misinterpreting your words?

And you have the "brass balls" to bitch to *me* about how people are starving? Why don't you have those lazy SOBs get off their ass and go plant a field?

@Putin:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Great_Chinese_Famine
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Soviet_famine_of_1932-1933

Putin33: "Centrally planned economies in Russia and China put an end to serial famines. Famines used to take place all the time in both countries. Now, they never do."

I disagree. Technological advances in these countries put an end to famines. Famines were still common after 20-30 years of communist rule, so that can't have been the reason. There were famines in South America or South-East Asia in the same time period, and they disappeared without a centrally planned economy.

"The flax is not 'her own'. "

Sure it is. She put forth the labor to grows it, Why no let the laborer enjoy the full frits of her labor?

You're saying grandma can take whatever she wants. Grandma is using the people's property to make an heirloom. Grandma is trying to exploit the people's labor for her own benefit. But the state will allow it, because it's not going to cause small entrepreneurship anywhere.

*Sure it is. She put forth the labor to grow it, Why no let the laborer enjoy the full fruits of her labor? *

Wow, never let someone force a phone in your face while posting.

@CA: you could alternatively consider it in terms of resource management. The tablecloth in question can be considered a resource the use of which the community is perpetually ceding to you because there is no collective use for your stinking table cloth. If someone "stole" (usurped your usage right) it from you you would presumably have a valid complaint. But if there came a time where a collective use was found and the collective need greater than yours, then the collective could move to end your usage rights.

So Grandma is exploiting the masses? That's funny. There are lots of Grandma's though. And you didn't answer my question about letting her enjoy the full fruits of her labor.

Growing individual plots of flax is exceedingly inefficient, so this strawman hypothetical is a non-starter. We've moved beyond the era of small crafts and artisans. That died with feudalism.

:) Oh, I love to enjoy the frits.

Ah Poor Grandma she'll be assimilated into the collective ;-(

According to CA, grandmas have a right to hoard flax to make useless tablecloths. To hell with the community.

This is cracking me up. +1 to both of you.

"Technological advances in these countries put an end to famines. Famines were still common after 20-30 years of communist rule, so that can't have been the reason. There were famines in South America or South-East Asia in the same time period, and they disappeared without a centrally planned economy."

Do technological advances appear out of thin air? The state has to direct resources to enhance the output of agriculture with better farming techniques and equipment. There are still famines elsewhere in the world, so state management matters.

"We've moved beyond the era of small crafts and artisans. That died with feudalism."

Oh man somebody's gotta tell all those Renaissance Festival people.


Still though your argument boils down to you don't see the right of an individual to own stuff the government wants to take from them. You haven't given any valid reasons why that should be so. You tried to claim that mismanagement doesn't happen in command economies but that laughable. I gave you one instance the the communist government of China admits was their fault and you say "Well at least it's bette than it was back in the Chin". Newflash it's a lot better in the United States, Canada, and Australia than it was under the Chin or Mao ZeDong.

"grandmas have a right to hoard flax to make useless tablecloths."

Absolutely, I love grandmas and would never think to withold the flax they grew from them. TO Hell with the collective.

"Do technological advances appear out of thin air?"

No more often than not they come out of entrepenuership :-)

The US and Canada have huge amounts of land and resources with a small population. Australia also, although less so than the other two due to desert. The Chinese government has lifted more people out of poverty than any in the world.

"Still though your argument boils down to you don't see the right of an individual to own stuff the government wants to take from them"

I don't see why individuals hoarding stuff they skimmed off the backs of other laborers should be allowed at expense of the good of everyone, correct. I think the results speak for themselves. Command economies have led to widespread literacy, full employment, high quality healthcare, and have developed economies within a short period of time. We live in a world of global capitalism and people's living standards have stagnated or declined while a handful get obscenely rich. Why should millions starve so the billionaires can build golf courses in their backyard? Because John Locke said its the billionaire's "right"?

"No more often than not they come out of entrepenuership"

More often than not they come from the military - which is state directed. Including the internet you are currently using.

Now that's a strawman:

Firstly you've shown no ability to do anyhting more than claim success for the Chinese government, who let's not forget has the nasty habit of killin millions of those laborers that you you do dearly love (I do to, that's why I want them to have upward mobility).

Check out the CHinese and Russian figures for killing people during peacetime on this chart.
http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/news/560855/posts

What's a strawman?

Freerepublic? This is a forum that neo-Nazis frequent. Surely you have a better source for your trite anti-communist propaganda.

"Firstly you've shown no ability to do anyhting more than claim success for the Chinese government"

No, I claim success for Cuba too. And every socialist government in history. People have pointed out the hunger statistics under capitalism, all you can do is spout off about grandma and her precious flax.

And any other time who would you decry for carrying out wars that the proletariat must die in for the capitalists to get rich? The entrepenuers who come forward with better tanks and planes in their factories, right? It's the military who buys and uses the material made in the factories or did you forget that?



More often than not they come from the military - which is state directed. Including the internet you are currently using.

"And every socialist government in history."

Including Pol Pot's ?

"This is a forum that neo-Nazis frequent. Surely you have a better source for your trite anti-communist propaganda"

Look at who is responsible for an equal number of atrocities on the chart, The Nazi's. You're surely not calling me a nazi or doubting what's basically well documented just by throwing out the word "neo-nazi" are you?

Why is it that these awesome private defense contractors couldn't develop an assault-rifle that's better and cheaper than the Soviet-made AK-47. (In the USSR, great inventions were named after their inventors, in the USA, the company gets credit). Why is it that the Soviets were the first in space? Why is it that the Soviet-made T-34 was the best tank of WWII?