Octavious, what is a 'fair' level?
How do you 'force' someone to work, other than by offering them work that is best for them?

Illegal immigration should virtually cease to be a thing, my point, at least, is that immigration laws are both immoral actions against potential employers (not to mention the migrants) and also prevent the creation of wealth.

(Note to my american friends. There is a world of diference between controled immigration and illegal immigration. I am not against immigrants, but illegal immigrants. Let us not confuse the two)

Is it unscrupulous to try and maximize your profits?
Why not let the people themselves decide what is 'fair' rather then the government?

I have no idea what a fair level is, and we are likely to never be able to find out while illegal immigration distorts the labour markets. Forcing someone to work is an easy matter, however. Once they have arrived with no legal status, what other choice do they have?

Octavious, are you of the belief that there should be some basis beyond criminality that should prevent someone migrating?

So escaping from desperate poverty, corruption, lack of education, and braking overly complex and restrictive immigration laws means you are of questionable morals? The ones with questionable moral fiber are the ones who hire these people at sublegal wages and in dangerous conditions. Most of these people are more honest than the ones who hire them.

I am of the belief that one should only go where one is welcomed. It could well be that US immigration laws are too harsh, and I claim to be no expert, but illegal immigration concentrates all the pressures of immigration (housing, education etc etc) in relatively small areas and restricts all the benefits of such immigration (sources of labour etc) to those willing to break the law. This can only be a bad thing.

Look: certain immigration practices are only illegal because we make them so. My question is, should there be any laws stating that immigration should be illegal in certain circumstances?

I guess from the 'pressures' you describe that you think that yes, it should?

Every crime is only illegal because we make them so. My answer is that such decisions should be entirely up to the people of the nation that makes them. The people of the US have elected their leaders, and they have chosen (by a long and labourous process) their laws, and it is only right that we should respect these laws.

I think I understand what you are saying here Ghost. I would seriously look at a completely open door policy. Why? Because people from all over the world generally want what I want, to ply my trade where ever I can either get the most money, or the most enjoyment out of doing it. As I think I should be allowed to live and work where ever in the world I want, I also think we should allow others to live and work where they want. Leave it to the market and supply and demand, it will sort out the world if we just leave the market to get on with it.

@Hunter49r maximizeing your profits wrong? Yes if you are braking the law or putting others in danger.

@Ghost - I said their labor had inhernet minimal value, not them. I believe anyone willing to work who does so has a certain minimal value they are contributing to society for each hour of effort they put forth and I do not believe that the SMBs who employ them (it isn't just major corporations folks, but the little guys trying to cut costs and corners) or the megafarms that have them in their fields have the illegals best interests at heart. These people are human beings. Should they be deported if caught? Absolutely until reform in the immigration and naturalization service takes place. But that reform needs to include stricter punishment to those who hire what is, whether you like it or not, effectively slave labor. These folks don't make enough to sustain themsleves, much less have any hope for a future. They come to this promised land with dreams that soon get crushed. If we make it easier for them to come in legally and make it fiscally unfeasible for the employers of ilegals to continue this practice, then we can improve their lot, fill the need in the lower end jobs, and eventually the cost of goods and labor will balance out.

Maniac in a ideal world that would be great, but in a world of the likes we have that would not work.

Draugnar well put

How much of a problem is illegal immigration in the UK or the rest of Europe? I've heard of some issues about immigration in France and Germany, but not much from the UK.

"But that reform needs to include stricter punishment to those who hire what is, whether you like it or not, effectively slave labor."

No, it is nothing like slave labor at all. Slaves have no freedoms or control over their lives. Illegal immigrants have obviously made the choice to come to America, to work for whatever wages they agree to, and have the freedom to leave whenever they want.

Octavious, the point of divergence we have then is a matter of why should laws be made. My firm belief is not in democracy as rule by majority will. If I use a democratic process it is not because I fundamentally believe in rule by majority, but because that is best to achieve some other goal.

I think laws can only exist if there is an ethical mandate for them. Then it becomes a question of ethics, but before we agree on a basis for decision making, it is impossible to make any higher level discussion about the decision itself.


@ Draugnar, does a clumsy glazier who drops tools through more windows than he mends have a certain minimal value?

You assume that there is a mandate for criminalising immigration in all of your argument, what is it?

@Hunter - you are so naive. Many illegals don't have the choice to leave. They are effectively slaves to the smugglers who brought them over for the mega farm. If you were educated in the realities of the life of an illegal immigrant you would understand that they have to "pay off" their debt. The problem is, it never gets paid off. So they are slaves to someone. Instead of assuming all men are free, do a little research and learn the facts before opening your mouth and proving you are a fool.

show me.

@Draugnar, apologies for the caps lock:

THE IMPORTANT POINT IS THAT IT SHOULDN'T BE ILLEGAL.

And then in the case of Illegals in the present day, they made a free decision to become indebted. It is not slavery to be required to pay off debts.

@Ghost - but a glazer is a, albeit minimally, skilled job. Think berry pickers or corn huskers. Think a job that even a mentally challenged individual could do. If the employee does a good enough job to not be worth firing, then yes, they have a certain minimal value per hour to society. If they are fuckups that couldn't cut a blade of grass with a pair of nail clippers, then they won't have the job and that minimum wage doesn't apply. It only applies to those who do their jobs with a minimal proficiency and no one here has said that the immigrants don't bust their asses and do a good job. In fact, the opposite has been mentioned at least once in this thread outside of my posts.

But what about a cherry picker who is just slower than average. Should we disallow them from having a job by setting a minimum wage above what they can justify?

Ghost - I agree that the only illegal aliens should be criminals (in their own country) who sneak over because they know they'd never get admitted otherwise. what I'm arguing against is your insistence that the minimum wage be eliminated. This just encourages companies to abuse their workers and is the reason trade labor unions were founded to begin with. As far as their debt goes, I don't believe you honestly think the smugglers who take 75% of their pay and call it the "interest" are actually business men and honest enough to onely collect the debt then let them go. These folks will never pay off the debt because the smugglers won't let them. They find excuses and reasons to keep them under their thumbs and the illegals have no recourse because they are illegals.

Minimum wage in the case of farm hands can be handled by setting industry wide minimums on a piece meal basis. X dollars per bushel. The fatse ryou work, the more you make.

"I do not agree to TMW. Building fences, border patrols, fetching and deporting illegals: it's all VERY EXPENSIVE"

Our military is also ridiculously expensive, but it keeps us safe. Safety is rarely cheap. Fences and the Boder Patrol also keep out drugs, weapons, and human smugglers.

Also, I meant to say "refugee status" not "refugee statues".

I would like to see America go back to Ellis Island-esque immigration policies. Like being able to walk into a Port-of-Entry into an Immigration office and walk out an hour later as a legal resident. The citizenship requirements are fine. But we need to slacken the legal residency rules. A security check and recording someone's fingerprints and DNA is sufficient. Legal residents would have all the priviledges of citizens, except legal residents cannot vote or recieve government welfare.

Oh, okay.

That rather makes the illegals discussion irrelevant, because the number would be truly tiny. Also, they're doubly criminals now, so who cares? They have no rights anyway.

The point about minimum wage is that there is only finite employment above a given wage, and with immigration in particular, that will cause unemployment. There are people who's work will be less valuable than the minimum wage, and they will therefore not be employed.

@TMW, they emphatically don't keep out drugs.

sorry i don't have time to read everything everyone has written, hopefully this will be a short addition.

@DbJ you said: "Yes, prices would go up, but they wouldn't stay up..." - interesting, you take your economic presepctive and use it to support the arguements you like - you suggest that a) it owuld be an easy task to stop all illegal immigration b) Ultiamtely it doesn't really matter what the labour supply is like because supply and demand will balance everything out.

On the second point, you are probably right, but free movement of workers would also reduce prices by increasing the labour supply. In your system it shoulnd't matter if the labour supply incrases dramatically, because things will just balance out in the end, lower prices wil increase demand, and thus everyone will be employed :)

Did you forget my mention of the tax subsidies to the employers who would employee the immigrants and sponsor them? These subsidies would be cheaper than the cost of welfare/unemployment for the immigrants. And the fact is, local governments have given tax subsidies to companies to draw them into or keep them in their locals for decades. Stop subsidizing the mega rich sports teams and provide subsidies to help the newly immigrated integrate and get gainful employment. you honestly don't give enough credit to a person who is willing now to risk life and limb to get into this country in the hopes of making something of themselves. The truly sloven "immigrants" aren't immigrants at all because they didn't have the werewithall to even try to get into this country.