@obi: "But unless you want to say that our present state has always been/always is"

i don't want to say we know anything about the present state and how it changes, until we actually study it. I think it is only fair to say - we don't know what the end points of the present state are in either time or space - and that is assuming we can agree to define both time and space.

Sorry. Message meant for another thread.

Interesting. I guess they cannot think of a way to answer, and since they know God works in mysterious ways (although not all the time), they choose to anser you in that way. Or maybe they are trying to speak to you in a parable.

What's your question?

Nevermind. Too many posts, and I didn't read the first 2 pagesa before I posted. So, I think I will rescend my offer to answer. I waded through too much already. :-)

@Orathaic, What I said about being outside time is just to counteract an obnoxious argument alot of people bring up. I agree with you, we cannot really know anything about a timeless dimension because it is so foreign to our own.

Christians (as i am one) use God to explain everything! but isnt that what were supposed to do? He is the maker of all things.! and im sorry for anyone offended by our religion but maybe if you are athiest or any other religion, take a look at how life works.... we have not one evidential piece of reincarnation, evolution, big bang...... and more on the big bang... if that created everything then were did the bang come from? were did the particles come from? The only Logical explanation would be God or Some Ultimate being.... i mean muslims think the earth rises and sets in a puddle.. if you have ever read the koran then you would realise someone didnt like the way the Bible was writen and used his own off thoughts and ideas STRAIGHT from the Bible! no offense to thier religion whatsoever.. just making my point....

and i forgot to mention on the muslim idea....... it is for when i said "God or Some Ultimate Being"

@Ursa:

But that's what I'm so sick of- "God is unkowable/myusterious ways/trust Him/Trust you can't UNDERSTAND Him... or whatever It is."

That argument and line of thinking stunts our growth, and destroys the possibility of our ever learning of God (I thought we were calling him "Marvin" lol) or, failing that, at least coming close.

You know what they say- aim high...

the idea of jesus was stolen from buddhism... look it up busdespres. Con fere- baby buddha and baby jesus. christianity didn't just sprout magically out of the desert with the hand of god

@BusDespres:

Christians (as i am one) use God to explain everything! but isnt that what were supposed to do?

No, that is NOT at ALL what I think we should do.

If you do that, take God as the answer for everything- think how dependent upon that ideal we become...

-I need a job... well, God works in mysterious ways, maybe he'll guide me to my job... or maybe I am not supposed to have a job and be a monk somewhere... guess I'll stop looking then, and come what may from God's will, I'll go with it.

-Should I save that person in the apartment next to me that's on fire? She's not a Christian anyway, and maybe it's God's plan to have her die... well, come what may, I'll let God answer this one for me... (as the poor shmuck is burnt alive.)

-I think I've found the cure for cancer! This is great, oh, wow, think of how many lives we can save now and- oh... this goes against what I was told about God... it conflicts with a Biblical account of the creation of the Earth... well, I can't have science go up against God, he's God, guess I'll just burn these results... drag, really, as my wife has cancer, but oh well, come what may...

-What pizza topping shall I choose? Hmmm... what would God choose... this is going to take a while... (six hours later) hmmm...



THOSE don't seem attractive or right to me.

We should not be willing to submit and just accept we are imperfect and can never understand God.

We should BECOME "gods," strive to become so advanced that we are above bigotry, above war, above racism, that we might train our children in better and better ways (I point to parts of the specialization in Plato's "The Republic" as the model- do what you are best at and happy doing, and focus on THAT, so if you're a writer, screw learning the quadratic formula, and if you're an engineer, what do you need to learn the structure of a Shakespearean tragedy for, anyway?) so that we can reach a state where we are above and beyond what we are now.

Think- we went from shmucks in huts with spears to shmucks in skyscrapers with computers and electricity and the power of flight and (they ARE necessary to an extent) guns and better weapons and we can now cure diseases that claimed many lives even a hundred years ago.

THAT's progress... now let's apply that progress to our humanity as well.

But that cannot happen if we just assume we have an ultimate protector to fall back on... after all, if HE will send his son one day to vanquish evil- why should we bother to try?

THAT sort of blind, Big-G-and-Big-JC-will-save-us thinking is something I LOATHE... and I think with good reason.

I agree....... i agree totally obiwanobiwan!

And ottovanbis... are you really that much of a dumb ass???? i mean cmon.... Christianity is the Branch of of Judaism Jesus was and forever will be a jew! but because of him Christianity was formed! and yes you idiot Jesus did pretty much sprout up from the hand of God.... for the reason being Mary was a Virgin!

Thanks for the support, BusDespres :)

And yeah, otto, come on, the man was a Jew... although I never DID get the "Virgin" Mary part... I mean, if she was giving nirth divinely, wouldn't that make her inseminated by God... so, not a Virgin (but it was God, so it must've been REALLY good?)

Lol... oh, that's out there... God and Mary... well, Joseph must've felt inadequate after THAT (ok, I'll stop now.)

;)

-I need a job... well, God works in mysterious ways, maybe he'll guide me to my job... or maybe I am not supposed to have a job and be a monk somewhere... guess I'll stop looking then, and come what may from God's will, I'll go with it.

*Job 38:36

-Should I save that person in the apartment next to me that's on fire? She's not a Christian anyway, and maybe it's God's plan to have her die... well, come what may, I'll let God answer this one for me... (as the poor shmuck is burnt alive.)

*Matt 7:12

-I think I've found the cure for cancer! This is great, oh, wow, think of how many lives we can save now and- oh... this goes against what I was told about God... it conflicts with a Biblical account of the creation of the Earth... well, I can't have science go up against God, he's God, guess I'll just burn these results... drag, really, as my wife has cancer, but oh well, come what may...

?

-What pizza topping shall I choose? Hmmm... what would God choose... this is going to take a while... (six hours later) hmmm...

?

Of all the things you could think of, you picked these?

the last one is hilarious but sadly true aswell. hahaha And the 2nd to last one is quite interesting, and I have actually struggled with that root issue myself. I'm still working it out though.

Please explain the second to last one.

They were half for comedy, half to get the point across...

Though I like #2, that's a good dilemma- to save or not to save?

And what if there's more than one choice of WHO to save- what if that person who's in the burning apt. is a brilliant writer and beloved statesman, but to save him you have to IGNORE and NOT help the people in the burning apt. on your OTHER SIDE (your apt. just got lucky i guess lol) where there are just pizza delivery men, and some have taken coke and speed and all that... but there's 10 of them

10 variously drugged pizza delivery boys (all with families) vs. 1 great writer and politcal power...

Hmmm...

orathaic:

I cannot conclusively agree that there is time or that the Universe exists or that you exist, how long I have existed and how long I may yet exist, if there is a meaningful sense of time beyond illusion at all.

That's the point. You can't prove those things.

@Zaza:

That's just the old "If it contradicts Genesis, it CAN'T be real science" bit... where some say the Earth's 6,000 years when science says its billions?

Just imagine a situation where the Bible said that what was needed for the cure for cancer was NOT possible (in other words, science has "found" the cure, but according to the Bible, it's crap, just like the 6,000 years vs. the billions.)

wow, no one addressed my buddhism point, that's rather, well ignorant, but expected i guess.

I would try to save the great writer because the drugged pizza guys probably would haphazardly move about and I wouldn't be able to save them. It also depends on a lot of other variables, but I'd try to save who I can by what I know of the chances of saving someone is.

You're so assinine obiwan. You're presenting hypothetical Bible verses.

@ obiwanobiwan:

Your confusion about my allagory results from a mix-up of what I was using as an illustration (a planet) and the thing being illustrated (Marvin).
Matter, as established, is "created," so the analogy breaks down at that point.

The Illustration: objects sitting on top of eachother

The Illustrated: Things keeping each other in existence

A planet is not sitting on anything, yet it does not fall (ignore its star: pretend it is free floating in interstellar space)

Nothing is sustaining Marvin in existence, yet Marvin does not cease to exist.

Do you understand what I'm trying to say? Of, course, this is destracting from the subject of the thread somewhat...

The definition of a virgin is some one who has never had sex, and insemination can be done with out sin or sex (think artificial insemination). Insemination itself is not even neccesary (think in vitro fertilization). That is how Mary could have sperm inside of her while still being a virgin. You were having a confusion of terms.

@thucy, you cannot prove anything at all. for all I know you are part of my imagination.

@otto, I get the feeling that you're being a bit obnoxious in your posts, and no one wants to talk with someone who is obnoxious.

@Zaza: Obiwanobiwan summed it up fairly well. Basically, some would argue that evolution is not a completely proven scientific law, unlike most people would have you think.

@Zaza: Obiwanobiwan summed it up fairly well. Basically, some would argue that evolution is not a completely proven scientific law, unlike most people would have you think.

Am I arguing about evolution? I'm arguing that Christians believe a cure for cancer would be a great gift!

Obiwan is saying that creationism is wrong; therefore Christians believe cancer shouldn't be cured. Wow.

Say your chances are even- if you go in Firery Apt. #1 for the writer or #2 for the pizza boys, you are GUARANTEED to save the one and GUARANTEED that the other will die.

They are all equally easy to rescue, and none will resist.
You have the means to help either (so you DO have, for argument's sake, the strength to haul out either the writer or ten pizza boys at once.)

Its purely choice- on the one hand, one might argue the writer/politician has a better QUALITY of life, but on the other hand, he's one person, and a bachelor, whereas the QUANTITY of the pizza boys is much higher- 10 people, and each with a family, so that's literally a hundred or so more people you are affecting by saving or not saving them. Then there's the question of good and influence- the writer/politician is acclaimed, on the status of someone like Hemmingway... he's influential, his works reach a wide range, will continue to do so after his death, and on top of that, as a political head, like say a House member, he's responsible for many lives. The pizza boys are all young, so they CAN still have influential lives (our writer is, say, middle aged, abou 55, the boys late teens-early 20's) and have children who can be influential, or their children's children... if an ordinary seaman around Liverpool had died in Battle of Britain, John Lennon would never have been born.

How does THAT impact our world, no Lennon, no Paul or George or Ringo, at least as we know them, no Beatles, none of their messages or art, nothing of Lennon's solo career...

So- save the writer seems to be the big and obvious short-term deal, but the pizza boys could provide a HUGE long-term benefit, even if just by fathering a father of a father of a genius son.

And i didn't say creationism is wrong...

I said that if you take that THEORY as fact and as a result exclude any idea that goes against that idea...

Well, we could still have the sun orbiting the earth and the belief that nothing can be past our solar system and that man shouldn't and can't fly... not attractive...

I don't think of it like that. You can't measure someone by how influential they are in society. If I had an equal chance I'd save the ten pizza deliverers because there's more of them, not because they could produce offspring that might make good music.

And you're avoiding my point about your logic. Are you admitting that your points were ridiculous?

What points were those, i must have missed them...

If it was the creationism one, i answered it...