Simply put, though, using the term "the west" emphasises division and stereotype because 'the west' is a term that has to have an opposite, it relies on a binary, i.e., 'the east'. This binary implies that whatever 'the west' is then 'the east' is not; that they are polar ends with polar differences. And so we build up this have sterotypes

I think it's a dim, lazy view of the world --

Usa Uk nato countries japan canada Australia NZ israel is i think more or less an exact definition of the west. Its an economic club that contains about 20% of world population but 80% of the world's wealth. Meaning 80% of the world's population gets to live from 20% of the world's wealth. No wonder some hate us.

But its all clubs within clubs. I think most reasonable people know what the west means and agree its a valid term. Anyway that's all I have to say on it.

Jesus even Hitler had respect for Paris. These perpetrators are animals.

I've never thought of the west as binary, nor as requiring a polar opposite.

Simply put, though, using the term "the west" emphasises division and stereotype because 'the west' is a term that has to have an opposite, it relies on a binary, i.e., 'the east'. This binary implies that whatever 'the west' is then 'the east' is not; that they are polar ends with polar differences.

And so we build up imagined ideas of what we supposedly all *think* the term 'the west' means, and this exists in relation to the sterotypes that build up around what 'the east' must be, because the east is not the west.

It's a dim, lazy view of the world -- and it leads to an 'us and them' mentality.

Also, the term's common usage partly derives from colonial maps that put Europe as the center of the world (most existing world-maps still do this). We need to stop thinking in ways that emphasise old views of the world.

I also don't see it as a divisive or binary concept. I think the world has a lot of different cultural groups and the West is one of many.

West of where?

Where is it West of?

I am not going to do a bullet point breakdown of every cultural group of people on the planet Wj, but suffice to say there are many and the historical and cultural group collectively known today as the west is one of them.

@ND. Completely agree.

This is farking ridiculous wjessop.

"Usa Uk nato countries japan canada Australia NZ israel is i think more or less an exact definition of the west. Its an economic club"


That's certainly not the definition of "the West" that ND was implying.

ND was implying that "the West" is a specific cultural zone -- ND, would you, for example, include Japan in that "Western" culture? Would you include Israel, Brazil, and South Africa in it?

Fielder, on the one hand, you're saying it's an "economic club" but then you refer to NATO as also being a defining feature of the West; NATO is a military organisation.

During the Cold War, for example, "the West" was used to refer to North America and Europe against the Communist East -- part of why you might be referring to NATO here.
But again, this division of capitalist West and Communist East doesn't really cover your other geographical areas.

It's not clear at all.

You're trying to say it's clear

@ND: I never asked you to produce a list of all cultural groups in the world.

If you could humour me and explain even just in a few short sentences what you mean by Western culture that would be great though.

"the historical and cultural group collectively known today as the west is one of them."

@ND: I never asked you to produce a list of all cultural groups in the world.

If you could humour me and explain even just in a few short sentences what you mean by Western culture that would be great though.

Even if you just pick 10 key words you think of with "the west" as a homogenous "cultural group".

What defines "the west" as a "cultural group"?

Okay sure.

Good to see in news reports lots of support for France from around the world. God this sucks.

Who do you think should be in the center of the maps wjessop?

@Wj: Eh I could respond at length to this, but maybe a separate topic should be made for it. Isn't the purpose of this one to discuss the attack and it's perpetrators. It's a terrible tragedy and I don't want to dilute the purpose of this thread. So maybe another topic for another time.

"Who do you think should be in the center of the maps wjessop?"

I'm not a mapmaker. My point was to focus attention on to the reality that the world mostly produces world-maps that have Europe in the middle because of Europe's role as the center of colonialism and empire. It's part of a natural Eurocentrism that shapes our world; the superiority complex that informs internal viewpoints of "the West".

I'd say it's reasonable to suggest that this is worth bearing in mind when we think about how terms such as "the west" and "the east" are more unhelpful than they are helpful.

@ND: This thread is whatever it evolves to be -- useful discussion is probably a better use of this time and space than it simply being a book of condolences.

@Flum: Do my answers to your questions sound unreasonable?

Well, I mainly think you're making a non-issue into an issue and pressing the agenda of "American and European culture is so arrogant and they should feel bad" in a case where it really isn't what's going on. (I'm not even from either of those places lol)

Like Europe being in the middle of the map.
The reason Europe is in the middle is because you originally had a big chunk of land in Asia, Africa, and Europe. Then the America's were discovered relative to the left of the big land mass and not to the right. It was much more natural to design the maps that way and it sort of stuck.
Also, South America is much closer to Africa and much more natural to place them together. The only point where America is close to Asia is by Alaska and Kamchatka.
"http://www.maptown.com/products/30497.jpg"
That's at least the reason for Risk making that decision.

I'm not missing the point of what you're saying. But I'm basically trying to say that a "Europe's superiority complex" is not the reason.

Using the term "the west" also isn't because of the white men in America and Europe being douches claiming they're better than the "east". The term West is not intrinsically better than the East. If people were referring to the areas as Bright and Dark or something I could understand the problem.

I'm not the type to let my ego get in the way of correcting bad practices or terms I use, but I guess I really just don't see the problem in this one.

*Somebody* has to be in the center of the map. European maps placed Europe in the center, Chinese maps historically placed China in the center. Sure, you could read that placement as a symptom of imperialism, but it's equally attributable to common sense.

If you wanted to offend the least number of people, I suppose you could put Antarctica in the center of the map.

If you say the West doesn't have a superiority complex, just reread fiedler's own definition of the west: "Its an economic club that contains about 20% of world population but 80% of the world's wealth. Meaning 80% of the world's population gets to live from 20% of the world's wealth. No wonder some hate us."

Even he admits that this binary creates division.

Your understanding of the history of maps does miss the point though; for example, when you state simply that "Europe is in the middle is because you originally had a big chunk of land in Asia, Africa, and Europe" -- that's not an explanation, because the statement doesn't explain why Asia and Africa are not in the middle of the map. The key detail you're missing/ignoring there is the power relation.

I also understand that the term west doesn't only mean geographical placement. It also refers to western culture. But again, so what?

Did you not read the rest of the reason why Europe is in the middle?

Actually, if you go to countries that are former colonies, their world maps commonly place Europe in the center. This is certainly the case in India and Nepal, for example, a case which I've done some research on.

To write this off as a simple quibble about offense or political correctness misses the wider crucial point about understanding why our world is the way it is and the contributing factors and worldviews that may need to change or move on.

Also, Africa is also in the middle of the map.

Flum, I'd simply suggest that what defines "western culture" is not at all clear. And this lack of clarity is unhelpful.

I did read all of your opinions on why you think Europe is in the middle of maps, yes.

It's ironic that you refer to the boardgame Risk to back up your argument that maps are nothing to do with colonialism.

Risk was more just to point out how there was only one close point in distance between America and Asia.
You know, how the attack lines on that board works.