Haha +1 Bo Sox Ohio Indians is the best

"I don't give a fig about the 49ers. And starting this year I don't give a fig about the whole game of headbrick."

Why? I'd think a game of headbrick would be right up your literature-hating alley!

"the news broke today that the Cleveland Indians were asked by the baseball offices to change their name to something "tasteful and non-offensive.""

Eh...

I GET that the Washington Redskins should probably change their name--I mean, even if fans don't mean it nastily, the team name IS a racial slur, and if there were a team called the New York Niggers or Los Angeles Kikes that just wouldn't fly--but how is just "Indians" offensive or a slur?

That mascot of theirs is, maybe..."Chief Wahoo," oy.

But just "Indians?"

Why aren't the Scands upset about the Minnesota Vikings?
Or the Celts upset about the Boston Celtics?
Or Ireland up in arms over the Fighting Irish?

Come on. Ditch the insensitive mascot, yes, but "Indians" is just fine.

I mean, if they wanted to name a team the LA Jews, I'd be OK with that...

Why you'd ever want to name your team after US I have no idea, but still. :p

Huh bo, asshole fans are exactly the reason EVERYBODY hates the Red Sox.

I have no doubt that Ortiz is beloved to the people of Boston. Jamie Moyer and Raul Ibanez are beloved to the people of Seattle, but that doesn't make them worthy of places in the hall of fame or comparison to Mariano Rivera. Mariano is the best player to ever play his position and one of the best to ever play the game of baseball. Ortiz is a player who is good at the most easily measurable and visually obvious piece of the game and worse than pretty much everyone else in baseball at all others. Just because he happened to be one of the better players on a team that won the world series after its large media market franchise hadn't in 100 years doesn't mean that he's worthy of the same recognition, especially outside of Boston.

What any of this has to do with my being a Mariner's fan, or what shit fans of my team consistently spew is beyond me. I'm curious to hear an explanation of that rather than the spewing of facts about our front office sucking as if that's something that proves your point or even that anyone disagrees with.

Want proof there isn't a god? The Rays are in the playoffs.

Isn't that complete proof? They drop devil from their name and magically start winning.

You basically just bashed David Ortiz *and* Edgar Martinez. Just so you know.

Martinez was a marginally better hitter and semi-competent (still below average) on the field and on the basepaths. He also wasn't linked to PED's and played a good chunk of his career in a pitcher's park. He, however, almost certainly won't be making the hall of fame our get comparisons to Mariano Rivera.

Care to actually address my questions?

Sure. To your first point, not everyone hates the Red Sox. The enemy of your enemy is your friend, and the Yankees suck.

Either David Ortiz or Edgar Martinez is the best player at his position ever. I'm not going to argue which, though I'd actually lean Martinez at this point. Two years down the road that may not be true. Ibanez and Moyer are not. Mariano is the best player at his position and in my mind threw the single best pitch (better than Nolan's fastball and Koufax's curveball) in major league history. You can't even compare the two to argue that one shouldn't be Hall of Fame while the other should because the Hall of Fame isn't quite that selective even if you think it should be.

I have never met a Mariners fan that liked David Ortiz. Maybe it's a coincidence.

DH isn't a position though, it's a lack thereof. You have to at least compare them to first basemen.

How many Mariners' fans have you actually discussed Ortiz with? I know plenty who like him. I also don't understand how dislike of a player can inspire such a hateful rave from you.

Regardless, you seem to be getting closer to conceding that Ortiz isn't comparable to Mariano, so we can let this go now if you wish.

Put David Ortiz in any other city and he becomes Gary Sheffield, who is a borderline HOFer as a position player and member of the 500 home run club. Ortiz gets an artificial boost to his credentials because he played for the Sox.

^

Gary Sheffield was the better player overall.

@ghug... what? When did I say he was better than Mo? And considering that Jeff Clement was my neighbor when he played here, I have some random little tidbits of Red Sox-Mariners competition.

DH is a position. Saying it isn't a position because they don't play defense is saying that pitcher isn't a position in the AL because they don't hit. The game has been redefined by the DH but both the DH and the pitcher affect the game every day and that's all that matters in baseball.

And here goes the hypocrisy. You can't get over David Ortiz maybe or maybe not having done steroids, which the MLB forgave. I haven't forgiven him for doing steroids - I don't "forgive" anyone for doing steroids - but I will tell you all day that it is a lot easier for people in general to forgive a classy player like Ortiz (or Andy Pettitte) than it is an asshole jackwad like Sheffield (or A-Roid). If David Ortiz is a terrible person for doing steroids, so is Sheffield.

"If David Ortiz is a terrible person for doing steroids, so is Sheffield."

Ortiz is a user for doing steroids--he's not a "terrible person."

Use or no use, Sheffield was something of a schmuck. Ditto Manny.

And when it's writers who decide who goes in and who stays out, that may well be the deciding factor.

Doesn't make it any more "right," but I can say that I myself and many others would have an easier time "forgiving" Ortiz down the line than I would Sheffield, Manny, Bonds, etc.

I still wouldn't vote for him, not now anyway, but if at some point users became "OK" to induct, I'd sooner vote for Ortiz than Sheffield.

I love Gary Sheffield. He spoke truth to power.

"When did I say he was better than Mo?"
This argument started because you said that you hoped Yankee fans would give Ortiz the respect he deserves just as Sox fans gave Mo. That is comparing them. Ortiz deserves no such respect.

"DH is a position. Saying it isn't a position because they don't play defense is saying that pitcher isn't a position in the AL because they don't hit."
My point is that all a DH does is hit. There are eight other players hitting on a team, so when you compare a DH to all of them, you have to consider that they add value in other ways. Ortiz probably would never have been more than a pinch hitter or a trade piece on an NL team, and you have to consider that when discussing his value as a player.

"considering that Jeff Clement was my neighbor when he played here"
I do not care in the slightest that you used to live near a busted prospect, but whatever helps you sleep at night I guess.

"And here goes the hypocrisy."
What? Are you krellin now?

"You can't get over David Ortiz maybe or maybe not having done steroids."
Just like how A-Rod might be guilty in this whole Biogenesis thing.

"which the MLB forgave"
Ha.

"but I will tell you all day that it is a lot easier for people in general to forgive a classy player like Ortiz (or Andy Pettitte) than it is an asshole jackwad like Sheffield (or A-Roid)."
Sure, but he has to admit it first (even A-Rod admitted it once). You're not really gonna get any argument from a Mariners' fan that A-Rod isn't a massive jackass, but some people being worse doesn't make Ortiz a saint. Compare him to all of the players who didn't do steroids instead.

The part that pisses me off so much about the whole Ortiz steroids thing is that when it came out, nobody paid very much attention to it when it came out because it didn't fit with the image of him that had become commonplace in the media, which is the same reason guys like A-Rod or Bonds, who were probably better than him without steroids too get (rightfully) vilified because their images are as public assholes. Ortiz is a decent player, but if he played outside of Boston, he would be seen for what he is, and I think it's silly that you can't see him for what he is anyway.

David Ortiz never got suspended. That tells me either the MLB doesn't have the evidence against him or they determined quietly that it was a fluke. Hell if I know. The drug testing though is absolutely abhorrent. It still is - that's why 12 out of 14 guys involved in Biogenesis got away with it through only the testing; if not for the documents, we'd never have known. There is no way to know who else has juiced in the league right now. Maybe there's a Mariners player in there (but obviously the steroids didn't really work if there is.......).

Yes, it's hypocritical to say Sheffield is a better player than Ortiz when both did steroids. Don't pull a krellin card because of my word choice.

Everyone knows the media is backwards, but consider where you are. ESPN definitely didn't latch onto it (they chose to go after Manny instead, he was their Red Sox baby at that point). In Boston though it made big news and he still gets the occasional question as long ago as it was.

If you want numbers, let's just post the 162-game averages for each and see if Ortiz is just a schmuck hitting in a hitters park.

Edgar Martinez (per 162 games): 684 PA, 177 hits, 24 HR, 41 2B
David Ortiz (per 162 games): 679 PA, 166 hits, 35 HR, 43 2B

I excluded RBIs and runs because Ortiz has clearly been on better offensive teams, but Alex Rodriguez and Ken Griffey Jr. aren't exactly breaks for pitchers, so don't take that to mean much. Feel free to go into sabermetrics; I can't stand most of them.

Ortiz is much better in the postseason, no questions asked.

"I love Gary Sheffield."

Well, you love Vlad Putin and hate literature...so there's no accounting for taste.

9-1, the Pirates are going to lose Game 1 of the NLDS to the Cards...alas.

Good.

"Well, you love Vlad Putin"

You hate any leader who doesn't kowtow to the United States. And you can't post a single response to me in any thread no matter how irrelevant without the obligatory Russophobic outburst. I think your hatred of Russians is your idea of being nuanced and seeing all sides of an issue.

Gary scheffid was a great met and a great guy on the mets in a hard situation. Not sure where your problem with him lies.

Dude he played for the Mets for one year...

And batted 276 hit his 500th home run and made a shitastic year worth watching. Great is too strong. But mets fans liked him for the reasons met fans like anyone, He played hard, he played well and he should have gotten an extension.

Obi isn't a Mets fan. He's an Angels/Red Sox/Pirates fan. He hates Sheffield because he said some truth about race relations, probably.

"I think your hatred of Russians is your idea of being nuanced and seeing all sides of an issue."

I like Russians.

I like all those Russian authors you hate, for one...because, you know, literature's crap and all...and then the Russian artists and composers...

But go on. Go on thinking I hate Russians.

"Obi isn't a Mets fan. He's an Angels/Red Sox/Pirates fan."

Because I root for those teams in the playoffs when my Mets are long gone?

Sorry, Putin...you can like more than one team. I love the Mets, but I can like other teams once they're out of the picture.

But you go on twisting things around...it's so fun to watch you try.

He hated scheffield because scheffield didn't like the press. Same reason why Albert belle aren't in the hall of fame, because the press didn't like them.

*isnt in the hall of fame, I originally had 2

And you love Sheffield so much that you can't spell his name jackwad.

Most likely because I don't give a flying fuck about spelling on a message board Botox.

"you can like more than one team"

Just like you can be a dual-citizen or have multiple wives.