I want answers to all three questions, but I'll change my vote towards EOD

@ND: I actually think his admission was more of a townslip. Will mafia ever admit to buddying up to someone? If a experienced player did that, it could just be WIFOM, but coming from a noob, it looks more of a town tell than anything else.

@SS: Even things up? I don't really think we need a tie non-lynch right now.

@DL: Stating you are going to change you vote kind of defeats the purpose of a pressure vote don't you think?

Jeff, there are almost 90 minutes left, I'm sure someone will remove the tie eventually. We won't let Saladin prevent the lynch.

Not necessarily. The fact that he's gaining suspicion (admittedly only mine) for doing a certain action may motivate him to ease out of doing that action.

Well said ND

@ND, @ Guak,

You're going to have to define a "scumslip" for me. "Slip" implies something accidental, and "scum" implies mafia-indicative. My comment was neither.

As I explained in the post, I understand that trying to earn town cred is not alignment indicative. To elaborate, obviously mafia wants to earn towncred.

But you are both dismissing out of hand my other point, which I stand by: town should be working to earn towncred too. I think this is fairly obvious too, but I'll explain it further because you both giving it no credence. As town, two of our primary objectives are to detect mafia and persuade others to lynch mafia. A third non-trivial objective is to earn towncred ourselves. Towncred for actual town is good because it (1) improves our persuasiveness over mafia who are trying to manipulate votes, (2) avoids getting ourselves lynched, which is good because having ourselves lynched is a mislynch and hurts town, and (3) makes it easier to detect mafia, who are artificially trying to manufacture town cred through insincere hunting.

My comment that I am trying to earn towncred is not accidental, and it is not mafia-indicative. I, as town, am trying to earn towncred, and I hope other townies are as well. If we have an effective town, then we earn towncred by doing effective scumhunting. And that is what I have aimed to do.

Espi: "None of my attempted reads of people have been commented on yet so far." Can you restate or cite where those were? I don't see them and remember having ever seen them.

@phil: Yeah, I guess that's true. I think bo and Yoyo will eventually cast votes that matter.

Unofficial vote count.

Espi (3): phil_a_s, Balki Bartokomous, ND,
guak (3): Lucland, , americaslacker, Trprado
TrPrado (3): Jeff Kuta, Espi, SaladinSmith
SaladinSmith (1): Yoyoyozo,
Lucland (1): DeathLlama9,
Balki Bartokomous (1): guak,

Not voted: bo_sox48

@guak, SS just did that for me.
@phil, honestly I don't really know. I have been trying to go off of the arguments that those who make the most cases, and trying to get more material for them. I have tried to interact with them more, by complimenting their posts and saying that I agree with their points.
@Tr im going to look back now.

DeathLlama will, too, I expect. If not, I will demand an explanation. Staying off the wagons is odd.

@Balki: the reality is that earning town credit should never be your goal if you are a townie. If you are town and you earn too much town credit, then you die during the night. Thus, townies should be focusing on finding scum and convincing townies to make those lynches happen. This inherently has risks since scumhunting makes enemies and enemies raise suspicions against you. If your goal is to earn town credits, that means you are not scumhunting. Thus, focusing on earning town credits is scummy.

There will be Official Vote Counts at 60 minutes, 30 minutes, and 10 minutes remaining.

And it is a slip not because you did not think before writing, which you obviously did (mafia usually do), but because you did not realize that what you were saying was scum indicative. The very fact that you say wanting to earn town credits is not alignment indicative showcases why this is a slip. The reality is that wanting to earn town credits is scum indicative always, as no townies should be focused on that.

Page 11 is the main one I recall, Phil mentioned how I wrote it, Tr found my reads off, but the majority of comments about me afterward were on reading me and no one examines my thoughts on people, trying to see another post where I bring my thoughts all together, most of my thoughts on people are all spread out, or in question form.

@phil DL said he wants Lucland to respond to him before he changes his vote, until the last few minutes atleast.

Right now DL, I think voting Lucland is useless as he isn't on to respond to you. Sadly 2 of the votes on guak aren't people who can actually question him either.

guak: I'm actually not sure I understand the following quote: "but the fact that you want to give more importance to the more recent one after the first one was so heavily criticized in itself is scummy." Wouldn't I want you to look at how I more currently feel about different players? Isn't that the point of updating a reads list?

Yeah screw it Lucland's not showing up ##UNVOTE

We've got to take a look at Lucland tonight, and tomorrow. Same goes for slacker.

@Tr: How you feel about players did not really change that much if you compare both your read lists. And I would think looking at both lists is important, not just one.

Espi: Ah, I see it. Could you post another one? Quite a bit has happened between then and now.

@Tr I am afraid I don't have the time. Still at work and im slowing down a lot while trying to pay attention to this thread. I can can quick breaks every now and then and post, but then I have to work extra hard to catch up on the work I am missing. Should I live, I will be posting more Day 2.

guak: Look at whatever you like. There are actually some pretty important changes. You and ND were what changed the least on it, other than transferred null reads.

What is a "transferred null read" are you just moving null's around?

@guak, I think we're just using words slightly differently, but I don't think it matters for now. No need to respond to the substance of my rebuttal now. It may be important to do so later, it may not.

For now, I really hope that the wagon on Espi picks up. Most of the good analysis on him is now several pages past. In general, I think he is most likely to flip mafia because:

(1) His post on page 1 flagging his assertion of his vanillaness for readers who will review the thread after the game strikes me as someone who believes they will play a central part here, and will be looked at differently by someone who is reviewing with knowledge of who was assigned what role. That is consistent with mafia and inconsistent with vanilla townie.

(2) His repeated strategy to call upon an inquisition on himself so that he might be cleared from the scrutiny is illogical, misguided, and possibly an effort to clear himself falsely. This is consistent with mafia, who would be looking to have false pressure applied and would be looking for false clearance. It is somewhat consistent with noob town, I suppose, in a way that any bad play by any new player could be dismissed away as noob town. But I don't think it is noob town because just because someone is inexperienced, that doesn't make them illogical.

(3) I've noticed that Espi has taken up the mantle of clueless newcomer even more since players (me included) began to question whether he is mafia, or misguided, because his posts did not help town. This is inconsistent with his post on the first page, which suggested that his dumbtell question about whether the cop should out was a "tip" for newplayers. At that stage, before any of this had happened, Espi explained away his actions as trying to guide new players. It does not fit the narrative that he later tried to construct.

Moreover, there is a lot of debate about Espi. Probably more debate about Espi than anyone else. I think an Espi lynch would be illuminating, either way. It would certainly tell me some things about Yoyo, as I've explained before. And I think it would make Day 1 rereads instantly quite informative.

Just to make sure I haven't accidentally changed a vote with a quotation: ##VOTE Espi

Transferred null is someone who was null on both lists.

If you think a triple slight town or triple slight scum read is very different from a null read, then yeah I suppose you are right Tr.

By the way ND is actually the only one that significantly changed, so why would you say it changed the least?

Don't have time to reread but I like the information aspect of Espi's lynch and Guak looks less scummy after actually contributing so ##VOTE ESPI may change later