Yours is 54 last I checked

Ah, huh. I tried to combine the User Search and the Word Search. My bad.

Oh, yeah, you've got me beat at about 130.
Well, there it is. Definitive proof. I don't ask a lot of questions.

(I'm winding down for the night. So if I don't get back to you on something, I'm not ignoring you, but I won't see it until the morning.)

I also don’t claim to be observatory.

If you want to claim that watching and not asking a lot of questions is a bad way to play the game, that's fair. It's probably even true. I'll do better next time. But it doesn't make me scum.

Ok, so first off, prado, your points on the bozo lynch is valid, it is hard to see scum doing that. I can’t really be sure about the damian gunslinger convo, you could easily have been scum knowing that the hooker was dead (pretty confident demon was the hooker) and just trying to keep the gunslinger from handing out a gun because he wasn’t the target you wanted to go after that night, especially if you could stop the gun from coming out. Your reaction to the demon lynch is strange for scum, but also a bit strange for town, you’re a strange guy sometimes, prado.

Your case against foxcastle is nonsense, him “lurking” for 6 hours at EoD, especially by his own admission means nothing. And the question marks thing really is the weirdest argument I’ve ever heard for someone being scum.

The thing is, I know better arguments for foxcastle being scum exist, because I‘ve thought about them. His actions in voting reedeer on day 8 before switching to vote darg after it became apparent darg was going to be lynched comes to mind. In fact, that’s a two for, because prado hopped on darg with me, and tied the vote between darg and reedeer. That earns prado town points for sure, but he didn’t mention it. This means that prado isn’t making shit arguments because there aren’t good ones because fox is obviously town, he isn’t. He is making bad arguments because he is bad at making arguments (sorry prado). I was interested in this theory that prado could be legit town and just be making horrible arguments and so I went to go check out the game he mentioned where tom got the best of him as scum in lylo (this was mafia 29). In trying to find that game, I found another time where prado made it to lylo as town and got himself lynched by scum again. Prado was right that the situations are very similar to ours, like down right spooky, in mafia 29, vash even got killed without giving reads again immediately before lylo. In both games, prado tunneled the other towny, got them to counter vote him and thus let scum go by without any pressure and the scum chose to kill him in the end. He was acting largely the same as he is now and in both instances, he tunneled a towny and ended up getting lynched. He tunneled me the very same way at the start of today. While this doesn’t mean he is town here, it does mean he has a long-standing history of being terrible as town in lylo, which if he is town, he is doing now. This gives me a lot of pause, because most of my scum reading of prado has come from inconsistencies and the terrible arguments he’s made, which must be excused because of his history. And when that stuff falls away, the case against him is much less strong.

Also, the fact that so many dead townies who are often good at this game scumread fox. This list includes tom, mainiac and flum, all of whom made their last advice to town to lynch foxcastle (among others in the case of maniac, where all the other suggestions were right on the money). I also know that even though brain didn’t scumread foxcastle in life, if he was here right now, or Jamie in a non-mod capacity, they would probably remind me that prado’s play is questionable at best sometimes, even as town. They’ve done it before. The only dissenting towny saying that prado was scum was vecna, and while I have been giving him the biggest weight because I thought his reads were the best mix of good and recent, his justification for scumreading prado was because dar put him above flum and snowy in his towniness ranking, which isn’t the best argument. Also he said that if dar flips scum, we should then lynch prado and guak as he died, which means he wasn’t sure, or at least not as sure as he was about dar. And he also purposed a few other scenarios where other people flipped scum besides dar too. It is basically vecna’s secondary read vs all the other dead towny’s whose reads I respect.

Then there is the fact that I reread foxcastle’s interactions with other people in the game, and it came off much less towny than his actions in isolation. Not only did all these townies request his death, but he had a lot of strange interactions with the confirmed scum too. Foxcastle opened the game by saying he plans to watch the vets play more than talk himself (which, to me, isn’t inherently scummy), but CB stepped in and told him that the towny thing to do it is push people and talk a lot, which is CB’s meta, but it feels weird he’s giving advice to new players as scum, and being a relatively new player himself and lots of people picked up on that. In hindsight, it does seem like he could have been trying to coach a scummy foxcastle before they could communicate via mafia qt, and CB is a first time scum, so I’d believe him being that overt. Demon asked if this was the first time fox had played the game early on day 1, which I could definitely see as her scoping out the experience of her teammate, and I could also see her not giving a shit about if this was his first game if fox was town and she was scum, that’s a meta read on her though. Foxcastle also voted for bo immediately after ghug told him to in thread. Ghug doing this is harder to believe to me, cause ghug would know that looks scummy af for both of them, but maybe he didn’t anticipate fox would just jump on bo without a second thought. Later ghug and demon both made pushes for fox on day 3, and I can’t decide if they saw the way the wind was blowing for them and tried to save fox by throwing shade on him, knowing they were going to flip scum soon, or if they were just trying to save their skins by shifting the vote onto a towny that tom and others had called out before. Then there is the reedeer vote yesterday, which would have won the game for scum if vash hadn’t hopped over to dar (thus making fox hop over after), which just felt SO wrong to me. Then today fox says he would have fallen for the trick of voting for reedeer and letting scum win cause he didn’t see it coming, but I was fucking shouting it from the rooftops that entire day, so idk. And the fact that foxcastle has given me a bad gut feeling all game (why I voted for him on several occasions) and prado was feeling towny until yesterday when he started tunneling me even though I was an obvious towny, but now I know that is just what he does, literally every other time I can find him in lylo, he is tunneling the other towny.

I’m conflicted. I need some answers.

@fox why did you vote reedeer yesterday and then switch back? To me, this is the scummiest thing you did all game.

Why did you vote bo after ghug asked you to on D2?

Why do you think you managed to avoid ever being a serious wagon?

What do you think about the arguments I made against you above? I’m sure you have thoughts on it.

Same question I asked prado, what have you done this game that no scum would do?

@prado What do you think of the pattern I’ve noticed in your play going into lylo? If you want to refresh, go read the end of mafia 23 and 29 (for spectators, the final day of maf 23 where Jamie and prado yell at each other all day despite both being town should be made into a mafia precious moments figurine).

Why did you vote for darg with me yesterday, especially sense you came out of it scum reading me despite helping me lynch scum?

I’ll ask you what drunk me asked you on new year’s, what are the chances we were town v. towning at the start of today?

Why did you scumread and vote to lynch vecna? That is the most questionable vote you’ve made all game to me, so think back if you can.

What do you think about the case I made on foxcastle above? And why didn’t you bring any of it up?

I’m keeping my vote on prado for now, but I’m honestly 50/50 between you two and am only not unvoting in case for some reason I can’t post a new vote tomorrow at my mom’s appointment. I’m strongly considering changing my vote, and will at least be able to vote from my phone tomorrow, but might not be able to make large arguments like this again. Make your arguments and responses to my questions count, boys.

Also, foxcastle, do you think all those weird interactions you had with confirmed scum make you look more towny or more scummy? And be specific on each one.

Spirit asks… “@fox why did you vote reedeer yesterday and then switch back? To me, this is the scummiest thing you did all game.”

I hadn’t voted Darg since Day 6, is that the switch back you mean? Or just switch in general? I had been supportive of your idea to try to save lurkers with the End Vote because I was worried that there was a chance that if we did not lynch scum, the modkills would hand the win to the scumteam (which is what would have happened if we had not lynched Darg). However, Vash’s point was: if we thought that any of the three lurkers were scum, we could lynch Darg and let the others be modkilled, and that at least gets town to LyLo with active players. That seemed like a much better idea to me. Do you think we’d be in a better place if Reedeer and Guak were still alive but not participating, trying to find anything indicative of town or scum in their limited posts, and running the risk of a modkill handing the game to scum? I thought it was a reasonable guess that there was scum in the lurkers—somewhat by process of elimination since I was townreading Vash and TrP in particular—so Vash’s plan made sense to me, and I jumped on Darg to “seal the deal” as it were. Obviously, my vote never mattered.


Spirit asks… “Why did you vote bo after ghug asked you to on D2?”

Voting for Bo was to save Yavuz, whom I strongly townread at that time. Flum asked me about this somewhat extensively; I’ll answer your questions, but feel free to look that up. Bo was the only viable wagon that could have prevented a Yavuz lynch. I didn’t have good reads on Bo, but was still convinced that was Yavuz was town, so I got on Bo because I thought it was better to take a chance on a lynching a player I didn’t have a good feel for rather than lynch someone I was sure was town. I had been voting for Brainbomb, and he asked me if I would vote for Demon. I told him that I wanted to save Yavuz. Ghug pointed out the Bo wagon would prevent a Yavuz lynch (at that moment, the Bo wagon was at 6 to Yavuz’s 7). Ghug wasn’t wrong, and that move made Ghug look good when Bo flipped town.


Spirit asks… “Why do you think you managed to avoid ever being a serious wagon?”

I’m new, and people don’t think of me, probably. A lot of the wagons have been prompted by experienced players saying that X (often someone they’ve played with before) could be scum based on comparing how they’ve played in previous games. Honestly, I thought the reads you’ve pointed out (Tom, Maniac) would have caught up with me before, but I observe that people like a good conspiracy (which also seems to be how the lurkers stuck around so long), so maybe I never provided that.


Spirit asks… “What do you think about the arguments I made against you above? I’m sure you have thoughts on it.”

If I can clarify something…. When you say, “Then today fox says he would have fallen for the trick of voting for reedeer and letting scum win cause he didn’t see it coming, but I was fucking shouting it from the rooftops that entire day, so idk.” I meant that if we had lynched reedeer (without endvoting), Guak’s modkill would have still lost us the game.

Making arguments based primarily on the final reads of dead townies that you want to believe seems iffy. You’re looking for the scumreads that include me, and disregarding the scumreads that don’t (Vecna, for example). And you’re putting words in Brainbomb’s and Jamie’s mouth that is entirely speculative. So I would point out that you may have some confirmation bias going on. They dead town reads got some right, but those lists have included plenty of townies too. They thought I looked scummy for the same reasons you’ve asked about, and that you have asked me to address, and that I talk about below.

I thought TrPrado was town this whole game. He comes off as town to me, I like the way he plays, and I liked that someone understood I was on a learning curve. He still comes off as town to me. Same for you coming off as scum. But I had to go back and look for real reasons that he was town, and I didn’t find any. Same as I had to go back and see if the reasons I thought you were scum were real, and in doing so found much clearer evidence that you’re town.


Spirit asks… “Same question I asked prado, what have you done this game that no scum would do?”

I don’t think scum would walk up to their scumbuddy as a new player, with no scum coaching, and make the first thing they do trying to bus their scummate, and then back off as suspiciously as possible. (More on that later, since you asked specifically.)

Having the tracker confirm that I did not carry out the NK two nights in a row?

Voting to move the Bo wagon from second place to tied for lynch on Day 2?


Spirit asks… “Also, foxcastle, do you think all those weird interactions you had with confirmed scum make you look more towny or more scummy? And be specific on each one.”

CB on day one… I’m new, so I walk up to CB and call him out because I want to play the game. (Because I just watched the last game and all the cool kids were active and combative and snarky!) It was like walking into a party where I didn’t know anyone and trying to make a joke to a room of people I don’t even know. But I wanted to play and I wanted to have fun, and I miss the point that the point of the game is to find scum, not to banter. So I try calling out CB, and voting for him, and… it doesn’t really go the way I think. So I back off (which also doesn’t go the way I think! No take-backs, now I know…).

If I’m scum, I’m the most junior scum with no experience, and wouldn’t have had the chance to be coached. I know I’m new, but I hope I’ve demonstrated by this point that I’m not actually dumb, and I think that a newbie junior scum walking up to a teammate and doing what I did is just dumb.

Ghug on the Bo wagon… I said what my preference was, and Ghug saw a chance to make himself look good while bussing his scummate. Maybe Ghug is enough of an evil mastermind to think down the line and say “hm, when I flip scum maybe this will make that townie Fox look bad later on”. But sometimes, it’s just a coincidence. I set him up by saying I’d vote for a wagon that saved Yavuz, and I think he just took a chance on being able to say “see, I was even pushing others to lynch scum” when Bo flipped.

I get why those things make me look scummy. And that’s frustrating to me, because I know what happened and what my intentions were, particularly at the beginning where I was still learning how to fit in and play the game (yes, I can be a little awkward at first). So it’s completely fair for you to read them the way you have. But like you said, it’s my interactions that make me look more suspicious rather than my actual actions.

“@prado What do you think of the pattern I’ve noticed in your play going into lylo?”

It’s frustrating more than anything else. M23 IIRC I was also moving into the dorms at college around the time of EOD so with that one I was a little more distracted. The most frustrating was M29 where I figured out the game but managed to get bogged down in self-doubt and stuck with the worse argument.

“Why did you vote for darg with me yesterday, especially sense you came out of it scum reading me despite helping me lynch scum?”

At that point in the game I felt a bit drawn out and confused. I was mostly just uncertain, but the possibility of darg being scum was one that was stronger in my mind because I thought the arguments Flum had made were decent, but that was only one of two remaining scum. I don’t remember paying attention to how many others were voting for him though, so I didn’t remember you starting that wagon either.

“I’ll ask you what drunk me asked you on new year’s, what are the chances we were town v. towning at the start of today?”

The chances of that look to be increasing a fair amount.

“Why did you scumread and vote to lynch vecna? That is the most questionable vote you’ve made all game to me, so think back if you can.”

Well Flum has started to make the argument and Vecna was prolific enough that I thought he could use a second look. When I took that second look (which I narrated a bit one night) I thought the things he was saying were off enough for me to consider suspect. There were a few odd inconsistencies in his play, but obviously I was wrong.

“What do you think about the case I made on foxcastle above?”

The part I’m going to disagree with most is the part where he tells CB he’d rather let the vets play it out, and you say that mentality is not inherently scummy. A player who lands their first game and is scum that’s the mentality you are much more than likely to see, whereas a new town player who is observant (as he claims to be) would more likely ask about what certain moves would be best.

“And why didn’t you bring any of it up?”

I guess parts of those things I didn’t notice because of divided focus? I have been doing a fair bit of things at home and haven’t had the opportunity to do the sort of super incredibly deep dive that you were able to do (like being able to look back at old games), but I still tried to do a bit of a dive because I felt like I had to. I didn’t have the time to see as many interactions, but from what I did see I wasn’t nearly as confident in my read of him as I had been.

VOTE COUNT 9.4

TrPrado (2) - SpiritoftheRadio, Foxcastle
Foxcastle (1) - TrPrado

TrPrado is scheduled to be lynched.

4 hours and 15 minutes remain in Day 9.

Okay Spirit, it’s essentially now or never.

Spirit said it might be hard for him to do much in the few hours before EOD, but that he should be able to make a vote if he needs to. But I certainly hope he's not going to swoop in and do some last minute thing.

I'll be sorry if I misjudged you, TrP. I have to go with what I believe to be the the right answer, but I did enjoy playing with you and hope to see you in the next one.

I’m aware of what he said.

God this is hard. I'm going to ##vote foxcastle. Most townies say fox, my gut has said fox all game, and prado is doing exactly what he s done before as town, and seems to lack perspective on himself and I don't think he'd assume I'd go back and reread his past games and note his bad town play. Bozos push doesn't make sense from a scummy Prado and outside of flums tracks, there isn't a lot of town stuff to say about fox, and everything he pointed out could be scummy or townie, and several things he has done do seem straight scummy. You both played a good game, whoever scum is.

I'll still be reading until eod, but i am still at the hospital

If I were scum, I would have taken TrP's game-long town read of me and run with it against you, Spirit. But I went back and reread and left my biases against you behind to do the right thing by Town. I guess I was wrong to trust you after all.

That's a better argument than you made before foxy...

Well, I wasn't bitter at you before, so I didn't think of it before. You've had to go back to previous games to clear TrP, edit out reads from this game that didn't fit your theory that I'm scum, and even go so far as to theorize what Brain and Jamie would advise you in this game. Like you said, my interactions look scummy, but my actions don't.

I kind of assumed that was the point of leaving me alive.

VOTE COUNT 9.5

Foxcastle (2) - TrPrado, SpiritoftheRadio
TrPrado (1) Foxcastle

Foxcastle is scheduled to be lynched.

35 minutes remain in Day 9.

(I'm on my commute home on my phone. Sorry for typos or incomplete thoughts)

God I hate how conflicted i am on this. So much on both of you could go either way. My gut read has always been shit in this game too.

I wish we had known what Vash was going to say.

Yeah for real, vash dropped the ball majorly there. I do think he would have town read fox over prado, but probably would have assumed I was scum like you all did for dumb gut based shit, and cash had terrible reads all game too so idk

If you have two townie who say they scumread each other and townread you, it doesn’t matter which one you lynch as long as you leave them both alive. You could’ve flipped a coin.

Vash makes sense for either of you two to nk. Prado was locked on me, so he wouldn't kill me and wanted to take who he could manipulate easier, which he would say was fox. Fox would have wanted to let me and prado fight each other and so killing vash would be the obvious move.

I think Prado could say the same about you!

All of that’s correct. Just wanted to demonstrate that lynching me isn’t particularly illogical for scum Fox.