Forum
A place to discuss topics/games with other webDiplomacy players.
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Sbyvl36 (439 D)
05 Jan 13 UTC
Sbyvl launches 2013 election coverage
Hello everyone. I am pleased to announce that sbyvl.webs.com has begun covering the 2013 governor, senate, and mayor elections. Go to sbyvl.webs.com to see our analysis of the races.
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orathaic (1009 D(B))
05 Jan 13 UTC
big government regulations?
abclocal.go.com/wls/story?section=news/health&id=8942890
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Open
taylornottyler (100 D)
04 Jan 13 UTC
(+1)
He's Metagaming...
Would any of you guys be up for a 2 or 3 game variant where the purpose is to metagame? Has anyone played a game like this, and if so how well did it work out? I have no points at the moment, but in a week or so I should be able to host the games :)
36 replies
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trip (696 D(B))
04 Jan 13 UTC
Lusthog Gunboat
Variant: No draw voting until someone solos or a stalemate is reached. No cancel or pause voting at all. See inside for more...
9 replies
Open
KingRishard (1153 D)
13 Dec 12 UTC
Return of the King
Details inside.
77 replies
Open
Draugnar (0 DX)
04 Jan 13 UTC
hellalt and company EOG
I don't really do EOGs as I do have the recall some players do. But here is the game link should one or more of them wish to bitch about the game.

gameID=104907
7 replies
Open
Dharmaton (2398 D)
01 Jan 13 UTC
your Song of the Day ;-)
YEAH! .post link and preferably the title too
12 replies
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orathaic (1009 D(B))
04 Jan 13 UTC
Be Afraid! (but of what?)
http://kusleika.com/breakfast/wp-content/uploads/2010/12/beafraid.jpg
6 replies
Open
bo_sox48 (5202 DMod(G))
04 Jan 13 UTC
Stupid Is the New Normal
http://shine.yahoo.com/healthy-living/dumbest-facebook-post-ever-170100535.html

I just fell apart laughing when I read this...
0 replies
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Texastough (25 DX)
02 Jan 13 UTC
Is there any country besides China that could defeat the United States in combat.
This has been bugging me for a while and I would like to know if there are any countries that would have a shot
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Tolstoy (1962 D)
02 Jan 13 UTC
"A half decent space based weapons platform"

The funny thing about advanced futuristic weapons systems is that 80% of them fail to live up to expectations when they are actually put to the test in a real combat situation. The fact is that nobody really knows how well any of these advanced weapons system built in the last 20 years are going to work (if they work at all) until they are put to the test. Wars are ever the most unpredictable of human happenings.
ghug (5068 D(B))
02 Jan 13 UTC
Fasces, I said that our population would be decimated, not wiped out, I am fully aware of the impacts of nuclear weapons. 270 strategically placed nukes (aimed at the densest spots in cities) would most certainly decimate our population. Sure, ours would kill all of them, but America would be reduced to next to nothing.
Draugnar (0 DX)
02 Jan 13 UTC
@ghug - But the real issue is China's nukes can't reach the Eastern Seaboard or even Chicago so we would lose the Pacific Coast and maybe somewhere into Texas. Our biggest government and business centers (DC, Chicago, and NYC) would not be hit.
Tolstoy (1962 D)
02 Jan 13 UTC
"China doesn't have (to my knowledge) any nuclear missiles that could fly to the other side of the world."

If a country can put Taikonauts into orbit, they can land a nuclear payload anywhere on the planet.
This is a fun discussion. Alright, so a few things I've noted.

1) China has the capability to launch a missile anywhere in the world. The key here that everyone seems to be forgetting is how many launch vehicles they have and where they are. If we knock out their launch vehicles in a first strike, they could have a million nukes for all its worth.

America, on the other hand, could have a sub with enough nukes to knock out every city in China sitting 50 miles from Beijing. And then there's the 12 other subs just like it floating around the world (how many Ohio class do we have btw? 12 is just a guess).

2) America has the most advanced missile defense shield available in the world. We helped the Israelis with the Iron Dome and I would doubt that the Israelis are keeping their contributions to it from us. Sadly, many of our most promising weapons systems were cut short before deployment. Such as this one, which was able to successfully destroy ballistic missiles.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Boeing_YAL-1

Then there's this baby in the pipeline that I can't WAIT to see combat ready. A railgun could easily engage ballistic missiles (But not ICBMs, I don't think. So this would be tactical missile defense).

http://www.theblaze.com/stories/military-video-captures-destructive-power-of-navys-newest-rail-gun/

And then we can't forget about our Aegis systems. I feel fairly comfortable about our missile defense systems.

3) On Space Weapons, the United States is the only nation (I believe) that is blocking a resolution in the UN that would prevent space from being weaponized. That means we have plans for space based weapons platforms already. No way in hell the Russians would be allowed to beat us there (though the Chinese have shown they can take down satellites at will).

4) With all the tech people on this site, I'm surprised nobody has discussed the impact of cyber warfare here. If someone takes down a satellite via hacking or via a projectile, its still down and all the military uses it had - be it for comms or spying - are gone. This would be a huge factor. If another nation were to take out, say our GPS system, or one of our military satellites, it would have a huge impact on our combat effectiveness.

5) A lot of countries have more tanks than the US. Mostly communist ones, ex-communist ones, or dictatorships (all of which are really one in the same).
Gunfighter06 (224 D)
02 Jan 13 UTC
Back to the original topic, China more or less *did* fight America in the Korean War, and China took horrendous casualties and lost the war (because America accomplished her strategic objective of keeping communism out of South Korea)
ulytau (541 D)
02 Jan 13 UTC
Before the Korean war, Chinese republic enjoyed like 5 years of relative peace. Yuan Shikai faced constant rebellions, Warlord Era saw China totally fragmented, Nanjing decade was the relatively calm one despite conflicts with Soviets, then came Japanese invasion, which was followed with civil war between nationalists and communists. After those forty years with no significant military buildup, facing the biggest superpower that recently crushed a nation that was beating China pretty well didn't really bode well. China of today is on a wholly differet level than China of early 50s even though it's stilll a pushover compared to the US.
Octavious (2701 D)
02 Jan 13 UTC
A pushover? The US could no more defeat China than China could defeat the US. If the Korean war was replayed China has advanced enough that the US and her allies would have little hope of winning. The US should still win similar fights based in nations that aren't Chinese neighbours though.
ulytau (541 D)
02 Jan 13 UTC
Yes, a pushover. China ability to project it's power vis-à-vis the US is negligible.
ulytau (541 D)
02 Jan 13 UTC
The US also didn't defeat Viecong. Doesn't mean Vietcong wasn't a pushover.
Octavious (2701 D)
02 Jan 13 UTC
China's ability to project its military power is greater than that of the US in every country neighbouring China, which are the only places China gives a damn about. That the US could win a military conflict with China over Kenya or Peru doesn't bother China in the least.

Stressedlines (1559 D)
02 Jan 13 UTC
(+2)
Chinese Military doctrine, as of right now, does not allow for force projection very far.

They have a carrier, sort of. It is an older Russian model, that was notfinished (sorry, Soviet) and the chinese finished it, but there is a LOT more to Naval combat than OWNing the carrier.

There is CnC, supports ships, re-supply. Remember, Carriers can not go out 365 24/7 They need roughly 3-4 months a YEAR of dock time, for repairs, upgrades, etc...

The US carrier fleet is not all at sea at the same time, usually 50% are deployed on active duty, and the other 50% are in port, although 2 or 3 fo them are able to leave port within 48 hours if the need is there.

Land forces.

I am a Vet Desert Storm, and we were always trained on detecting Soviet commander tanks. Their society left little wiggle room for individual tanks to operate without their command tank in operation, and we targeted them OFTEN. Their communication systems were different, and Iraq followed the same exact doctrine, and paid the price dearly for it.

it did not help that American (western forces) military were far advanced in not only technology, but also in training.

NCOs in western Armed forces are whatmakes them stand FAR above nations that use old Soviet Doctrine. It allows our small units to fight independent, and rely on vast experience from these NCOs, while Soviet Units relied exclusive on Officers.

When saidofficers were killed, the units were not capable of any offensive actions, and their defensive capacity was reduced also. I saw it several times in Kuwait, and at times, it seemd not 'fair'

yes, our Air force hit them hard in Desert Storm, but there was still troops on the ground with ammo in their pouches, and they did try to fight in some areas, and even when their Republican Guard Units stood up to fight, they were cut to ribbons.

American Forces are ALL volunteer, and trained VERY well, and now have aLOT of combat experience under them.

If the battle took place on a neutral field, like Phillipines maybe,or taiwan, China would probably get beat badly, as the American public would not care about 'casualties of war' as much, especially when the first 1000 or so KIA week happened. They would want exact results.


Stressedlines (1559 D)
02 Jan 13 UTC
When I say 'we targeted them often' I meant in training exercises,
ulytau (541 D)
02 Jan 13 UTC
"China's ability to project its military power is greater than that of the US in every country neighbouring China"

Sorry, but if you think that China has advantage in countries like Russia, Pakistan or India, then you do not give modern warfare enough credit.
Jamiet99uk (873 D)
02 Jan 13 UTC
(+2)
Yeah but China does not share a border with Russia or India at the start of the game.
Stressedlines (1559 D)
02 Jan 13 UTC
LOL @ JAMIE.
djakarta97 (358 D)
02 Jan 13 UTC
@Stressedlines: I completely agree that our military structure is advantageous because of the level of training that our NCO's have. However, I disagree with what you said in regard to the "first 1000 or so KIA". We have to remember that losing 1000 soldiers is a big thing today (in comparison to the First World War , where Britain lost 10,000 soldiers on the *first* day of the Battle of the Somme). The American public gets worked up when they hear that we lost more than 15 soldiers on any mission. You can only imagine the public reaction to losing 1000 soldiers in a week.


On another note, have you guys actually contemplated what the US foreign policy in regard to China should be? Here is an essay I wrote regarding this issue a month back:

TITLE: Why the world (and the United States in particular) should have reason to worry about China

China's policy leaves a lot for the United States to worry about. Though politicians seem only too eager to overlook the long-term threat posed by the communist regime in Beijing, the reality that we face is that China is growing stronger every day, and they are now seeking to use their power as a means of acquiring territory that was once "Chinese" (as if they have a dictionary definition of what a territory needs to have to be Chinese). The heavy-handed condemnations of Japanese nationalism, the jingoistic (and often irrational) disputes with the Philippines over rights to minerals in the South China Sea and manipulative usage of China’s own currency are all signs of a boisterous rising power. However, if history has taught us anything, it is that such boisterousness by a rising power poses a sharp threat to the security of the United States. And, countries that are looking for their “place in the sun” are not afraid to bully around other countries in order to achieve that goal (often to the dismay of the global hegemon).

China’s economic and military growth draws sharp corollaries to the rise of Imperial Germany after unification in 1871. After defeating the French in the Franco-Prussian War, Imperial Germany wasted no time in rapidly industrializing. However, Germany’s growing strength posed a strategic threat to Great Britain (then the most powerful country in the world). Though the Germans were defeated in the First World War, they bounced back to the global stage under the Nazi regime. They bullied their neighbors (Austria, Czechoslovakia and Poland) and paved the way towards a global war.

Similarly, China’s rapid growth has become a source of comfort and intense worry. On one hand, China’s growth has been an anchor for the global economy, and its rapid growth paved the way for economic success in the past decade. However, the gains from a strong China are short-sighted. China’s emergence on the global stage was driven by a state capitalist system that kept all “private” sector profits. Any economic activity was closely monitored by the People's Liberation Army and the Communist Party. Though the United States has invested far more in the military, China has focused their military in the Far East as they seek to achieve regional hegemony. Recently, China’s policy crossed the border from nationalistic to jingoistic. The government has made incredulous claims over parcels of land in an attempt to achieve regional hegemony. The recent diplomatic row with Japan is only one of numerous diplomatic rows China has kicked up in an attempt to achieve regional dominance over their neighbors. China has retained claims in Taiwan and Vietnam which date back to the Qing Dynasty (which fell in 1912). The diplomatic row that they kicked up with Vietnam and Taiwan over the Paracel Islands this year is just another example of China’s boisterous policies.

With all the signs of a diplomatic storm brewing, it is often surprising to hear that the United States has not found a reasonable solution to China’s growth. The USA’s inaction is well founded. If the United States does nothing, the problem will only worsen and China will continue to stay as a source of worry. However, if the United States tries to act too strongly to counter the growth of China, the Chinese government may interpret the actions as imperialistic, and that would inseminate anti-American sentiments in the region. However, if the United States acts too weakly, they risk another Munich, where overly conciliatory tones would be interpreted by the Chinese as a sign of the decline of the United States. That would give the Chinese reason to step up the diplomatic pressure on their neighbors to cede territory. China would continue to grow and overtake the United States as a global hegemon. With two vastly different options in front of the United States, it is believable that the United States has not done anything in order to stop the tide of Chinese growth.

The most viable option for the United States to follow is a mixture of the three policies presented. The United States should use a strong approach towards China’s aggressive jingoism, warning the Communist Party that punitive measures may follow if China continues to bully US allies like Japan, Taiwan and Vietnam. However, the United States must avoid the impression of being imperialistic when warning the Chinese, as such may give the Communist regime in Beijing reason to antagonize the United States and that would destabilize relations with China (which would have dire consequences). However, the diplomatic overtures are only a piece of the puzzle. The United States must also back up Japan, Vietnam and Taiwan to show China that a threat to allies of the US is a direct threat to the United States. Increased military deployment in these three countries would send a clear signal to the Chinese. And, above all, the United States must continue to pay off their debt to China and balance the budget before China finds another market to invest in.

The United States is thus faced with a problem that can be solved. If the US adheres to a three step plan of direct overtures, increased military presence and economic growth, the United States can tame the tide of Chinese jingoism. However, American policymakers do not have all of time to act. If China can find other economies to pour substantial investments in, they can demand their money back. Such a move by the Chinese would cripple the US economy for years, even a decade. By then, the Chinese would have achieved their goal of global hegemony, and the United States would only be able to watch from the sidelines, mired in economic calamity. So, quite frankly, the United States of America has a ticking time bomb on their doorstep which policymakers have to defuse before it’s too late.

Post your opinions about the article.
Taiwan and China were the same country until the communists won the civil war, and both claim to truly represent China. Taiwan is where the last vestiges of the nationalist government fled, and only became a separate country due to the impracticalities of reuniting it with the mainland - it was not a movement for self-determination or anything of the sort.

The article was overall quite interesting (although I think it paints quite an unfair picture of China and is too pro US from a moral standpoint). Regardless from a Machievllian point of view we can talk about how we can stay ahead of China. Basic economic imperialism and hegemony in the developing world is crucial, the resources are important and it limits China's scope for growth. Finding other manufacturing sources and growing self-sufficiency are important too. Should probably stop letting them getting education in the west too. Then casual, subtle building of soft power amongst the Chinese populace to turn them against the government and in favour of us, this will cause instability and weaken them internally whilst giving us more strength in return. I would also think a show of hard power is good, but it should not be in disputed territories (this will lose our soft-power). Rather joint military exercises should be launched with allied countries just outside of the dispute areas (it still won't be received well, but gives less cause for the populace to be inflamed).
Stressedlines (1559 D)
02 Jan 13 UTC
Djkarta I think you misunderstand me a bit.

We often fight now days with '1 hand tied behind our back' I think any war with Chian, the proverbial gloves will come off and the full Might of the US military will be felt

In Conventional warfare, the US Army has no equals. The military loses its huge edge when they are forced to fight these hit and run wars.

China WILL fight us conventionally if that day comes, and will learn a quick lesson, but we will not escape without our military beaten down.

djakarta97 (358 D)
02 Jan 13 UTC
Well, if that is what you meant, I completely agree

@Socrates Dissatisfied: Thanks for the comments...I'll incorporate them into the essay.
No problem, can I ask what they essay is for? College/Work/you felt like it/other?
Mujus (1495 D(B))
02 Jan 13 UTC
Any country with nuclear weapons and motorboats can destroy huge swatches of any country with a coastline. So let's try to avoid those slugfests, shall we>?
Gunfighter06 (224 D)
02 Jan 13 UTC
America could put a strategic stranglehold on China if we really wanted to. We have bases in the Philippines, Japan, South Korea, Alaska, and Afghanistan not to mention numerous small atolls in the Pacific that could be reactivated. With some careful diplomacy we could get Russia to stay out of a Sino-American shooting war. With more diplomacy we could get India to join us or at least allow the use of some bases.

China has big numbers but outdated doctrine, no force projection capability, and no recent major combat experience.

America has the hardware, the strategic assets, and the experienced personnel to kick Chinese ass.
orathaic (1009 D(B))
02 Jan 13 UTC
Chile! That have secret underground snipers, who would easily out manouver and out fight the US army, they'd have earth shields to protect against your 'nukes' and could take down the US airforce using scrambler technology (not to mention the airstrips being undermined) The only problem would be the navy, but as Chile has a continuous land bridge to continental US soil it wouldn't make a damn bit of difference...

Plus the US is disunited, politically and militarily, so record poor co-ordination would cripple the federal and national armies from fighting together, with citizen 'militias' unable to use the global co-ordination system (GPS and others) leading to chaos and destruction, especially in the more mountainous areas of the US.

Has anyone played contra?
djakarta - I think that paper paints an unfair picture of what Chinese imperialism would look like. China is not the type of country that would meddle in another country's affairs. They are a very introverted looking regime. They want to keep 1 billion people in line with support for the Communist regime, and that is very hard to do. Thus, they focus on policies that will either 1) Rally the populace around the flag or 2) Help out the general population (usually economically. Think securing raw materials). They aren't going for force projection and all the hard power the US goes for. They just want enough to scare off the US.
Putin33 (111 D)
03 Jan 13 UTC
China aspires to be a regional hegemon (see: South China Sea being its core interest). The United States grand strategy in the 20th century has been to fight preventive war against any country aspiring for regional hegemony in Europe or Asia. Now, due to the Iraq syndrome, a war with China in the near future is unlikely. However the US will beef up its military arrangements with China's neighbors who fear a rising China.

China is as of now no military rival for the United States. Nor is there a big line of small countries rushing to ally with them. Politically China is rather isolated as it is seen by many countries as being a revisionist state that threatens the stability of the international order which is buttressed by American power.

The issue though is that the US is going to retrench. The US has never really been fully committed to being the world's policeman. A strong isolationist current runs through the general public. With American retrenchment lies opportunities for regional hegemons to assert themselves, and possible security competition in areas where regional integration is weak.

America is going to be like Rome and simply surrender from exhaustion. It won't be defeated in any head-on military confrontation. It'll just give up.

And as far as I can tell, China doesn't really want America's job. Global hegemony means global responsibility, and as goldfinger said, China doesn't want that burden.
principians (881 D)
03 Jan 13 UTC
(+1)
Answer to the original question:

Yes. Vietnam
bo_sox48 (5202 DMod(G))
03 Jan 13 UTC
Uhhh .... really? Few flaws in that argument...
principians (881 D)
03 Jan 13 UTC
Another answer to the original question:

Yes. USA itself.
principians (881 D)
03 Jan 13 UTC
Sorry, I'm realizing that I misundertood the question: I thought it was asking for a country which could defeat USA in "war" (original queston says "combat", which doesn't make much sense to me, if no clarifications are added)

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79 replies
steephie22 (182 D(S))
31 Dec 12 UTC
Any tournaments coming up?
I guess the title is self-explanatory, but I guess clarification can´t hurt :)

So, I´d like to know which tournaments, if any, are scheduled to come soon and when that will be...
24 replies
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philcore (317 D(S))
04 Jan 13 UTC
Two Questions about the Forum that I couldn't find in the help
1) If you mute a thread, is there any way to unmute it?
2) At what point do your posts and Threads move to the link that you can click on from your profile? They seem to be several weeks old. Is it a page count thing? or a timing thing?

aTdHvAaNnKcSe
6 replies
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ulytau (541 D)
03 Jan 13 UTC
Presidential amnesty
Our beloved universal genius, Master of the Universe and president of the Czech Republic, Tunnelgramps Václav Klaus recently ordered an amnesty for 1/3 of all prisoners to celebrate 20 years since the dissolution of Czechoslovakia he so masterfully orchestrated. Another 500 pardons are in the pipes as well, gotta help the pals out before his time in the office runs out.
10 replies
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Strauss (758 D)
04 Jan 13 UTC
Fast Europe-21
http://webdiplomacy.net/board.php?gameID=107643
0 replies
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The Czech (40297 D(S))
04 Jan 13 UTC
Czech's No CD Challenge
Sorry, I have to leave. Son just called and is having issues with his car. I have to drive over to the college campys to see if I can fix it.
1 reply
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NigeeBaby (100 D(G))
03 Jan 13 UTC
(+3)
A Message from the Queen
.
66 replies
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fulhamish (4134 D)
02 Jan 13 UTC
The sciences
A recent post by dubmdell on the beauty of science struck me as being rather eloquent. It paused me to stop and think what the relative proportion of STEM (science, technology, engineering and mathematics) students were across our various countries. In the UK in 2010, for example, there were 12,000 psychology and 10,000 history graduates. Chemistry and physics had 2,400 and 2,200 respectively.
46 replies
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bo_sox48 (5202 DMod(G))
03 Jan 13 UTC
Protoplanetary Cycles?
http://news.yahoo.com/never-seen-stage-planet-birth-revealed-180754694.html

This stuff is cool... don't know how to explain it...
6 replies
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Lando Calrissian (100 D(S))
30 Dec 12 UTC
25 hour gunboat
10 replies
Open
lkruijsw (100 D)
31 Dec 12 UTC
Republicans defend the rich
I am from Europe, so I don't know much about American politics. I always thought that the GOP is for the hard working people. But it seems more and more that they just defend the rich. Sounds stupid to me, is a rather sure way to loose votes.
84 replies
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orathaic (1009 D(B))
03 Jan 13 UTC
Trigger Laws
These are laws which do nothing unless certain conditions are first met.

So some (US) states will automatically ban abortion if Roe V Wade is overturned; or automatically ban human cloning if it becomes possible to achieve; however i really like the following rule: en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/National_Popular_Vote_Interstate_Compact
0 replies
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HEY
Does anyone here know how to cook an egg?
29 replies
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Commander_Cool (131 D)
03 Jan 13 UTC
Please help me figure out the rules!
I've found myself in a situation for which I cannot find the rules outcome explained in the FAQ...
6 replies
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orathaic (1009 D(B))
03 Jan 13 UTC
Pandin's Paradox!?!
Discuss. (when your convoy, if it would succeed, would cut support which would cause it to fail, but if it were to fail, the lack of cut support should result in a successful convoy...)

Eg: F eng Convoys Brest - Lon; Lon S wales - eng; north sea S bel - eng
16 replies
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obiwanobiwan (248 D)
30 Dec 12 UTC
The Greatest (Love) Story Ever Told?
It's not "Romeo and Juliet"...surely we all agree?
It's not "La Boheme," however much I love that opera.
It's not "Les Miserables" (at least not the musical/film version, two lines and BAM! instant, undying love between Marius and Cosette...lol!)
So...what is it--triumphant, comedic or tragic, as we approach the romance of New Years', what IS The Greatest Love Story Ever Told?
99 replies
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fulhamish (4134 D)
02 Jan 13 UTC
Is psychology a science?
If so do we need to preface it with hard- or soft- or, even, pre-?

From the LA times: http://articles.latimes.com/2012/jul/13/news/la-ol-blowback-pscyhology-science-20120713
93 replies
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The Hanged Man (4160 D(G))
03 Jan 13 UTC
Credo
Post a quote that (more or less) starts with "I believe . . ."
5 replies
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demmahom (100 D)
03 Jan 13 UTC
Join this game for good luck in 2013111
" For the new year 2013!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! " is the game's name. It is ancient med and pot is 8. Plz join
6 replies
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orathaic (1009 D(B))
03 Jan 13 UTC
WDC
Coming this August:
1 reply
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bo_sox48 (5202 DMod(G))
03 Jan 13 UTC
Java
So I got my computer back and am trying to update Java... the latest version doesn't run on Chrome. Is there any way I can get 5 or 6 for OS X 7.5?
7 replies
Open
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