@thucy,

I'm old school +1.
You can't say "who is zultar is he new."

Well you can, and knowing how you do, I'll do it for you
who is zultar is he new

Software engineering I have already started learning programming and unfortunatly a lot of schools in IN don't offer it.

@Tom, that's why you distinguish based on class. Shouldn't a poor white kid in that situation get the same benefit? Shouldn't a rich black one not?

My mother grew up in an extremely poor family in Texas, her mother had two children with her father (who was white), and then had the rest of her children with a Mexican man. Despite growing up in the same family under the same conditions and preforming just as well in school, she had to pay full tuition at an unimpressive public university while her siblings got full rides to Ivy League schools. How is that fair?

yeah but thats columbia lol.

thats the thing like, in undegrad just make sure you get a good education, dont worry about brandname unless you reeaaaallly have your heart set on like kennedy school of government or something.

also i am shocked that whatever the state univs are in Indiana dont have software engineering thats such a.... popular field.

If white people are the majority it makes sense that there are more rich. However wouldn't it make sense that there are more poor white people then black people as well.

+1 ghug

@ghug

its not which is why i think race should be de-emphasized but still considered in quota targets and as a tie-breaker.

also inb4 some jerk brings in critical race theory and tells me I only +1ed ghug because I'm a racist white fuck

http://25.media.tumblr.com/tumblr_lsc2p542Lq1qkdvqeo1_500.jpg

Well there are not many jobs around here for that. I will probably end up moving after college.

I also want to point out I think gender should not be taken into account either.

Good point Thucy, but I feel like it's slightly inaccurate because it places too much agency on the current generation (who aren't responsible for the inhumane treatment of people who lived and died hundreds or tens of years before them). I know it's supposed to represent whites and blacks at large through the generations, but blurring that line erroneously blames people who didn't have any part in oppressing anybody because of something they can't change either (the place of their birth).

Alright Thucy, I guess it's fair as a tie breaker, if there truly is a tie, but shouldn't those quotas be based on national percentages rather than trying to give equal numbers of spots to every race?

I agree that gender should not be taken into account. Some girls in my grade are pregnant because they get free college. They just pass it to their parents to take care of.

How can there every be equality between race and/or gender when there's still so much of an ado being made out of it.

@Holy that's fucked up.

The Fathers should get the same benefits as long as they are actively supporting their children.

" but shouldn't those quotas be based on national percentages"

they should and they are.

no one is actually attempting an equal breakdown, it wouldnt even be possible.

and about the "sins of our fathers" thing. believe i identify. there is nothing more fucked up than getting pinned with something your ancestors did.

but the thing is, no, we didnt do the whipping and racial slurring (some of us anyway), but what we did do is live in the lap of luxury in more ways than i can well list as a result.

so whenever i drive the car my parents bought me, or inherit the money they leave me, or benefit from my stable and healthful upbringing, or education (which was painstakingly seen to to be the only thing i had to worry about), or make money off of jobs i got because of all of these, or stay on my parents' insurance policy and borrow money from my brother.... all of these things are directly THANKS TO horrible shit like the slave trade. that's why white people are richer, and there is no other way to slice it.

we have to own up to that, and, if we will admit that it was a bad thing, we have to basically pay reparations and try to make it as much like it never happened as possible.

because as it stands it sounds like you're saying

"well if i rob the jewelry store but dont get caught till im 80 years old, how can you punish me?! i was just a kid"

or even closer yet as an analogy "i robbed the store and gave the jewels to a friend of mine. he did no wrong! dont take the jewels from him!"

*scoffs*

@thucy "because there are institutional and historical reasons why minorities do not score as well on test scores and get as good grades."

I've never really understood this argument. Can you explain? And if these grades and test scores are our most reliable metric for academic performance, isn't it safe to say that they wont succeed as well in college and grad school at the same rates as HS? Even if they do, does that mean that the disparity will be fixed eventually by using this system?

before anybody (Putin) goes all half cocked on me, please know that I'm just raising the question, and I admit my question comes from ignorance only, not on some kind of racial bias.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Demographics_of_the_United_States#Race_and_ethnicity
http://ucomm.stanford.edu/cds/2011.html#enrollment
http://mitadmissions.org/apply/process/profile

Have a couple of examples, the percentages are way off.

Know that I don't disagree with you generally. People who ARE WORSE OFF because of past injustices deserve a leg up, hence my recommendation. I know I'm being a bit of an entitled asshole here, but I don't think that giving some a leg up at the expense of others is really a fair way to fix things.

My point about the disadvantaged white people still stands too. What about the people whose parents can't buy them cars, or leave them money, or give them a stable upbringing? To extend your analogy, "you robbed the store and gave the jewels to a friend, so we're going to take the jewels from him and force your other friend who doesn't have any jewels to pay a fine."

The test scores and grades are actually not very good or reliable metric for academic performance. They are highly related to your social economic status. So having parents/family with more money actually allows you to have more interesting experience and a wider range of knowledge, which helps you learn more in school. So as thucy said, because of slavery and a host of other things we have done to minorities, white people overall are wealthier, allowing them more opportunities to learn in life.
It is actually a very complicated list of arguments and statistics which is why I hesitated to even reply in this thread.

Thucy, your analogies are still way off, because of one crucial factor - the kids entering college today DIDN'T steal the proverbial jewels. There's no problem with a leg up, I'm not disagreeing with your main point, I'm just being careful to emphasize the fact that there literally was no agency involved on the part of this generation at all. Yes, you and I benefit from wealth built up over the years in part due to slave exploitation - and no, I know I would rather be in my place than that of the average black man at my age in my city - but I didn't choose my place of birth or the exploitation that occurred. Minorities should still receive that leg up in applications, etc. because OF the exploitation, but I very adamantly oppose the idea that this generation's white people are responsible for what happened well before they were born and as such I object to the image you posted which simply throws all generations of white and black America together without accounting for such critical details in assigning blame and agency.

Smart people unfortunately have trouble paying for college as upper institutions, especially private ones, are incredibly expensive, Wake Forest, Duke, and other such private schools are dreadfully expensive costing over 50k a year. Being a smart-middle class white person sucks if you wish to go to such an institution because you are rich enough to have to pay a good majority of this amount, but it isn't an easy amount to pay.

Although honestly even simplifying to white and black is wrong. My ex and her family are straight-up first-gen immigrants from Ukraine. She wasn't responsible at all in any way for the exploitation that occurred in America. She shouldn't be punished for being white.

That's another HUGE reason why quotas should be tied to socioeconomic status or percentage demographics instead of as a tiebreaker: immigration. If the logic behind the tiebreaker is "white people in the present benefit from white people in the past oppressing black people in the past, therefore we give black people a leg up in applications," that's sound - IF all white people benefited from that. But there are PLENTY of white first-generation immigrants in America from, say, Iran, Ukraine, Russia, etc. that have no culpability past or present in the slave trade. 'Punishing' them (as the straight tiebreaking procedure can do) is wrong. Plain and simple.

Not sure what you want to major in but yeah that is a crazy amount. There's got be a better alternative in IN though. I found a decent engineering school in OH (granted it was 10 years ago) but it was only about 10k a year at the time and I can't believe it would be any more say 25k a year now to find a decent one.

" What about the people whose parents can't buy them cars, or leave them money, or give them a stable upbringing?"

Yeah that's why admissions quotas should focus on social class first, race as an afterthought. Doing so will have the effect of modernizing racial makeup anyway.

"the kids entering college today DIDN'T steal the proverbial jewels. "

we didn't steal them but they are still in our bank accounts

"Being a smart-middle class white person sucks" lol yeah sure it does. cause your life is over if you dont go there, whereas the poor kids who get in "not on merit" have the alternative of, you know, the ghettoized slums of our nation.

PE - we are not responsible for the actual atrocities of the past, but we are responsible for continued to reap the benefits. if we do not give back what our fathers stole, then we are complicit in the theft.

and the white person thing actually applies across the pond too, because europe did its own imperalizing.

again, yes, race is a hatchet, class is a scalpel, but if its between no progressive admissions and progressive admissions based only on racial quotas, I support the latter.

believe me i understand your aversion to the idea of being responsible for your ancestors ugly bullshit, btw - my great grandfather and a bunch of other fucks lynched a boy and his father in rural texas.. and that's not a joke.

its not just reparations for the slave trade, it goes beyond, what it is is an attempt to equalize race relations.

"believe me i understand your aversion to the idea of being responsible for your ancestors ugly bullshit, btw - my great grandfather and a bunch of other fucks lynched a boy and his father in rural texas.. and that's not a joke. its not just reparations for the slave trade, it goes beyond, what it is is an attempt to equalize race relations."

Drunk again?

Man, how did I miss this conversation before?

lol sarg. its tuesday.










^^^ ambiguous