@Obi - The mormon church is a minrotiy in the WASP world and I have heard of no other denomination that accepts either proxy or posthumous baptisms, much less both. So let it go as havign no significance because it doesn't. If there is a God (especially the God of Abraham), he isn't going to accept someone just because the Mormon's baptised them posthumously, and he is more likely to not accept the Mormons who pull this shit.

Of course, this is coming from me, and my view is that I'll see just as many Jews, Muslims, Athiests, Agnostics, Hindu, Wiccans, or Christians in heaven if there is one and I get there. It's not what specific religion you are, it's how you treat your fellow human beings that matters (I'm fucked for sure, but still) and if there is a God and he doesn't believe what's most important is what we do with our time here, then I sure as fuck don't want to deal with him.. And yes, I know that makes me a heretic in most religions.

@Jack - The vocal minority (that calls themselves the moral majority) is a small part of Christianity world wide. Even the Catholic Church is small compared to all of Christianity and Christianity is small compared to all of religion. So realize that the extremists get all the press but don't hold a controlling interest and you'll come to see that, extremists aside, religion actually *does* feed the hungry and clothe the poor.

@Santa - +1 all the way my friend. I like your view on the whole thing.

Draugnar, you're back, gee I missed your unique contributions.
have the mighty Mod's given you parole or a complete pardon for your sins ?

@ Jack Klein, it's maybe irrational, but when I found myself in life
threatening situation(s), I couldn't stop myself from asking for God's help.
And when I was young and so full of myself I used to say that men created Gods,
not God created us, and make the old gaseous vertebrate jokes.

Now I think it would be impolite and churlish of me to "diss" God out of hand.
and I do like to have the odd private chat with God, even if they seem to be one way
conversations.

As for organised religions,
you ask the question, could any of them ( possibly ) be right ?
can you demonstrate that all religions are axiomatically wrong ?
I think no religion is perfect, as all religions are human constructs,
and we are imperfect creatures, so it is impossible for humans to provide a perfect
understanding of God
For those who will claim that this or that prophet had a perfect message,
I would point out that their perfect message, if it did exist, has been corrupted by us
imperfect humans, it's the old caper of a relay'd message
"send reinforcements, we are going to advance " rapidly becomes
"send three and fourpence, we are going to a dance"
Two observations I would make on the nature of God,
any God that is responsible for my creation, or Draugnar's,
must have infinite patience and an unlimited sense of humour

Christopher Hitchens has a nice argument that runs
anything that can be proved by faith without fact, can be disproved without fact

so I accept that many will find my religious opinions illogical and irrational,
but I cannot ignore the fact that when I thought I was going to be killed I asked
for Gods help & here I am, still with a pulse.

mm<

Wow. That's great news. Good for Anne Frank. Even after death, Jesus Christ was able to remove the hardness from her heart. Praise Him!

@Santa: don't pretend you can speak Hebrew or Yiddish. You used the word meshuga completely wrong.

Bill Maher has the perfect answer to this question, as he does with so many others:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qZ-oWXYU7SM

@MjrMitch - I left of my own accord and came back of my own accord. Or maybe I left of my own Liberty and came back of my own Liberty (I own a Jeep Liberty so a really bad pun there). Either way, I was just stepping away and am only back for a little while until my current game ends and I can take 6 months or so break.

"religion actually *does* feed the hungry and clothe the poor."

In order to convert them to their cult.

The Liberty is a fag-mobile.

@Putin - out of context and ignoring the grammar usage as usual I see. I didn't mention any specific religion or group of religion. The context was that Jack said religion did nothing positive like feed the hungry or clothe the poor and used ectremist minority examples to make his point, one of the many logical fallacies you are so fond of. I was merely pointing out that religion, as a whole, can and does do good. But leave it to you to take it out of context and try to inject your personal vitriole and vendetta against organized religion into the conversation. I guess it's time to plonk you again.

It's called "saving souls," Putin. If you were a more holy person you would know this.

@ Mapleleaf: lol despite myself.

@YJ - Putin is a militant athiest who clkaims to have backgrounds in every possible religion fathomable. In short he is a blowhard fucktard and not worth the effort. Mute him and your life will be much better.

"I was merely pointing out that religion, as a whole, can and does do good. "

You clearly didn't comprehend my post. My post wasn't specific to any religion. All religions "care" about the poor and vulnerable because they believe they are easy prey for conversion to their cults.

I did a while ago. Now he's off mute and I'm glad.

Though Putin can get nasty, I really do enjoy watching him flame people on the topics upon which we agree. He does know stuff, and despite his more unpleasant qualities I feel he brings more to the table than takes away.

All Communists "care" about the working class because they believe they are easy fodder for setting or propping up their bloodthirsty dictatorships.

Whewee, this is fun! Man, I can see why Putin goes in for unnuanced overgeneralizing.

"Christopher Hitchens has a nice argument"

Not possible. Snitchens is the Mitt Romney of plummy sounding dead Trotskyite snitches.

"All Communists "care" about the working class because they believe they are easy fodder for setting or propping up their bloodthirsty dictatorships."

Or they are working class. So yes, they care about their own class. Duh.

"Or they are working class. So yes, they care about their own class. Duh."

And there are no poor religious people who help other poor people. Right.

No, you clearly missed mine. I wasn't talking to motives and couldn't give a fuck about motives or your personal vendetta against the organizatrions which, if you are to be believed, helped you find a home when you were a baby. Or am I not correctly remembering that you were adopted through CSS? And how the fuck do they convert a little baby?

Face it Putin, no one but you and your militant cohorts give a fuck about your vendetta. You aren't going to change the rest of us who have faith in a higher power by declaring any faith false and attacking it anywhere you find it?

This is Lent and Passover is coming up. Christians and Jews alike view this as the highest of the high holy days. For Christians, it's Christ's sacrifice and resurrection. For the Jews, it's Gods passing over their chosen people and finally freeing them from the slavery of the Egyptians under Pharaoh. For you, it's just another fucking excuse to attack that which you don't understand and which scares the fuck out of you so bad you feel it must be eliminated - nay erradicated from the earth. You are a sorry man who is more afraid of how he will end up when his life is over than anyone else I know.

Putin is now claiming to be working class? Bwahahahahahahahahahahaha!

Bullshit, Putin. You are a university *student*. The working class is *not* working on getting higher degrees. They work in factories and earn moderate incomes at best by busting their ass. You don't bust your ass, you *are* an ass.

I am not a student right now, so go fuck yourself. I work with autistic and down syndrome kids. You know, the same kids you Republicans said are god's punishment for having an abortion.

"And there are no poor religious people who help other poor people"

Yes, look at all those impoverished churches, with their billions of dollars in tax exempt money.

Damn Draug.

"Face it Putin, no one but you and your militant cohorts give a fuck about your vendetta."

I give a fuck. I think it's funny and I agree with most of Putin's religious comments. Even though I'm neither militant nor atheist, I agree wholeheartedly that whatever version of the 'one true faith' you espouse should be kept in the privacy of your own homes and churches.

And you are being really judgmental and stereotypical about students. I worked 30 hours a week at a shitty restaurant to pay my own way through undergrad, and I am hardly unique in that regard. One may be both working class and a student.

@YJ,

I suspect Draug meant that students weren't working class in the Communist-relevant sense. They may be now, but they're trying to improve their class and have a long-term upward financial trajectory, typically.

As for Putin, I think you should be careful about applauding somebody just because he happens to agree with you. Putin WAY overutilizes fallacies, like the one just now where he lumped Draug in with other people who happen to be Republican who believe things that Draug clearly does not believe. Pure fallacy, and utterly typical Putin. There are people here who defend secularism pretty well -- orathaic comes to mind, Thucy when he chooses to, you. I'd be careful endorsing people like putin just because they're on your side. (It's much like me and TC). Ad hominem attacks, snide implication, sarcasm, and appeals to authority are almost all he has in his rhetorical arsenal.

(To the obvious comeback -- well isn't this an ad hominem attack? I'm not responding to an argument, I'm responding to an endorsement. So it's actually relevant).

obi, if you are not religious why do you care?

They are trying to honour her, how can you be offended?

(Since my last post was undeniably rather harsh, I should modify it to the extent of saying that I HAVE seen putin make good arguments before, so if I implied that all he makes are bad ones, I apologize. I do think the very high rate of fallacy and empty rhetorical attack in his "arguments" severely limits his usefulness in a discussion, though, so my overall point remains.)

Yeah bro, I WAY overutilize fallacies, whereas Semck is a paragon of logic and most especially, civility.