It does. I successfully play my games without lying. Thought it is a great handicap. I used to lie when i first started and those were some of my most successful games.

I think the Koran has a line in it about being able to lie to enemies in wartime. Not too sure about the bible.

I'll keep that in mind, prussian, if I ever play you. I can' think of about 13 ways off the top of my head I can use this information to destroy you :)

The choice is yours, success and glory as diplomacy player in this earthly life, or eternal damnation in the afterlife. As as atheist I found the choice an easy one to make.

I never lie. Diplomacy should always be played when seated or standing up

Octavious: As opposed to what? While running? While lying down?

There is no such commandment.

"Bearing false witness" means saying that somebody else did something, when you know they did not do it.

I'm too busy coveting my neighbor's wife.

Jesus continually claims to be speaking the truth in opposition to those who are lying: "For you are the children of your father the devil, and you love to do the evil things he does. He was a murderer from the beginning. He has always hated the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he lies, it is consistent with his character; for he is a liar and the father of lies." So lying is not consistent with Christian teachings. I have had to struggle with whether it's OK to even be deceptive WITHOUT lying in Diplomacy, and I think it's not. But... I'm not one of the best Diplomacy players, and I suspect I'd be an even worse politician.
http://www.blueletterbible.org/Bible.cfm?b=Jhn&c=8&t=NLT#44

That said, there are plenty of examples of God loving and forgiving liars (Abraham, Isaac, Jacob) and murderers (Moses, David). And Jesus said he didn't come to save the righteous, but sinners. :-)

I used to covet my neighbor's daughters, but then we moved back to Ohio.

Oh, and Dipper Dan is correct. The commandment actually refers to lieing specifically about your neighbors actions. It implies this would either get you out of the blaim or result in your gain in some manner. So it's OK to lie in Diplomacy as long as the lie isn't saying someone else promised to do something or told you something they didn't say or promise.

Real diplomats don't lie, they just tell their version of the truth.

I don't lie... I just change my mind, a LOT. And how am I supposed to keep up with who all I've told about my latest resolution?

No, in seriousness, I do lie. My reasoning is that not lying in Christian ethics is tied up with loving people, and not hurting them, and also with reflecting God's nature and caring about the truth.

I believe that none of those is hurt in a situation where, for fun, lies are told in a context where everybody realizes lies are being told. I'd apply the same reasoning to the casual joke lie, a form of humor in our culture where both sides realize a lie is being told with humorous intent.

That said, Mujus's approach is doubtless the safer and higher road, and perhaps one I should emulate.

Of course it's okay to lie in a *game* of diplomacy. We all transform into a false reality in which everyone is given permission to lie to each other, so once you know everyone can and likely will lie at some point, you basically transcend the fact that it is lying, it's merely playing the game itself. This is similar to the fact that life is difficult, but once you fully accept that, you transcend the fact that life is difficult, life is merely life, since difficult is part of the definition, and thus there is no need to focus on life being difficult anymore. So, we're not lying, we're merely playing a game of diplomacy, no more, no less.

If the Bible was serious about that "commandment" it wouldn't be full of lies, now would it?

That, Putin, is anthropomorphizing a book, as though it, instead of a bunch of drunken old men, determined what was in it.

Also, you didn't use the subjunctive.

Mujus, what you just argued was the idea that because God forgives sinners, we can go on sinning.

I expect that I will hedge my bets by begging forgiveness from Jeebus at the 11th hour.

Until then, I fully intend to go on wenching, drinking, smoking, blaspheming, lying, and picking my nose. I still get to go to heaven, and look how much more fun I got to have than our good Christian friends!

Unless you get killed in a car accident driving home from the bar wasted off your ass.

Back in my day, you all were smart enough to spot a troll thread before the other trolls got involved...

haha Draug, you make fun, but seriously, by the letter of Christian law, thats ACTUALLY the way it would work!

God is cruel enough to send me to hell if I never acknowledge him in my life, even though he knows if he just said 'hi' I'd be his most devout servant....

....unless I totally hedge my bets and make a halfassed plea for mercy on my deathbed while terrified for my immortal soul....

...unless I don't get an opportunity to do so... in which case it's back to hell for me!

How bloody stupid is that? But I don't believe it. Either God doesn't exist, or God exists and the faithful just misrepresent him. I'm fine with either explanation.

I tend towards the latter. We can't understand God and therefore we make up all these rules and laws and shit to guilt trip everyone into acting a certain way.

HEY KING ATOM HOWS THE SYMPHONY COMING.

according to the bible jesus lied or at a minimum deceived. he told some people he was not going to a market, but then put on a disguise so they wouldn't catch him and went anyway. so if you're just worried about christianity, then i suppose you can lie. but i agree with an earlier statement that islam is the most lenient when it comes to dishonesty. so if you want the best religion for diplomacy, there's your answer.

you know what you need to resolve this dilemma? restrict yourself to gunboat games. while you're at it make them winner-take-all and live. we need more players signing up for the games, particularly during off-peak hours. or if you have the time to chat, and want to chat, you can try public messaging only games. it's a lot easier to compete without lying in those games, but they are rare.

Marx, that's reassuring and I'd like to believe it, but somehow this game shades over into tones of reality (!), which complicates the issue. Bolshoi, Jesus did say not to tell anyone at least once when he healed someone, and he did send his disciples ahead of him and then came into the city of Jerusalem later, and he walked away through the midst of a crowd of angry people, so I guess those instances could be seen as deceptive... but... never to take advantage of someone like we try to do in Diplomacy.

oh my god bolshoi haha. A disguise? lol. I've never heard that one. I was just curious, totally trolling after I realized I missed lent. Not giving ISH to jesus this year. For now :P.

As for the game and lying. I agree with MM, BUT it does spur some implications, what about F2F Diplomacy? We lie blatantly to others in the face....makes you wonder doesn't it? :)

Yeah it does, FTF, Sandgoose--And Semck, I'm still wrestling with this question in my evil little heart. lol. And Prussian, the point is not that we won't sin, because we will... the point is that Jesus paid the price for that sin, and if we confess (agree that it's wrong) and repent (an act of will, a decision that we *want* to do what is right), and accept the suffering Messiah's payment for our sins, then we can be with him in the afterlife.

But you can't manipulate God like you can your parents, or other dip players (some more than others). You're not going to trick him, Dude. He's God, and we're not.

ok i was exaggerating a bit and being factually inaccurate. it turns out jesus was going to a feast not a market, and it doesn't say he went in disguise, i don't think, just that he went in secret, presumably concealing his identity...

i was quite sure this thread was a troll, but there's nothing wrong with trolling. i do it all the time. nothing to be ashamed of.

@bolshoi - He sent them on ahead and didn't plan to go at the time because he knew if he went to the feast as himself for all to see, that the timing wasn't right. He then changed his mind about going but had to go in secret because the timing still wasn't right. He didn't hope on an ass and take off the moment the others left. IT was some time later when he decided to go after all.

3 Jesus’ brothers said to him, “Leave Galilee and go to Judea, so that your disciples there may see the works you do.
8 You go to the festival. I am not[b] going up to this festival, because my time has not yet fully come.
10 However, after his brothers had left for the festival, he went also, not publicly, but in secret.

i don't think you can read in a change of mind on his part. it sounds a lot like he pretended he wasn't going, then once they left, he went anyway. what kind of messiah doesn't know what he's about to do? so he just made a false prediction, then? you'd think his father would help him avoid these errors.

Depends, that is if you think Jesus was God and God was Jesus...hmmm....

And besides, it's not like he was lying. He just didn't want people to know he was going. Good conversation, but I agree with Mujus and Draug, your Jesus is deceptive and lying point Bolshoi doesn't really mean much.

John 7:8 "You go on. I'm not going [fn] to this festival, because my time has not yet come."
Notice the symbol for the footnote. In Blueletterbible.org, the footnote says that some manuscripts read "not yet going...." Also, this was not the Festival of Unleavened Bread (Passover), but another festival, and he didn't come in riding on a donkey this time.

Point taken...also the literal translation might be different? if it's greek we can ask Panos Ko.

Back to the orginal post- an intersting question and one I have wrestled with. I generally play gunboats so am often not in a position to lie- though there can certainly be a lot of deception in a gunboat game. I tend to view it as a game. A game where everyone enters knowing the rules and the manners in which it is played. I don't see it as a regular activity- I'm very much against lying in rl. I do see Mujus point to a certain degree. I have a difficult time playing a slow full press game as it does feel difficult for me to maintain a web of falsehood over several months duration. A live full press game or ftf game though feels fine to me to lie in (maybe I'm wrong). There are often deceptive elements in games. Its often what makes them fun and intriguing.

Who hasn't handed the dice quietly on in Monopoly while talking about politics and hoping nobody noticed you landed on Boardwalk?

(Or Mayfair).

I imagine a good God who created this world would approve of the use of deceit and subtle cunning to accomplish worthy aims. Thus I imagine he would condone the recreational lying in Diplomacy that serves as training for such things.

The person at the computer can't lie.
The character "Sandgoose" can.
In my case, the person at the computer lies a lot more than the character redhouse does.