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A place to discuss topics/games with other webDiplomacy players.
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Sargmacher (0 DX)
04 Nov 11 UTC
One More Needed 800 D
One More Needed: gameID=71225
0 replies
Open
indianajones (1482 D)
04 Nov 11 UTC
Diplomacy points
Can you run out of Diplomacy points? If so, then can you create an other account?
7 replies
Open
Lando Calrissian (100 D(S))
03 Nov 11 UTC
Gunboat means....
86 replies
Open
Ges (292 D)
03 Nov 11 UTC
Anonymous WTA Gunboat, WorldDip, 24hr, 10 Dip buy-in
gameID=71217
7 players needed, 3 days left
2 replies
Open
Jacob (2466 D)
01 Nov 11 UTC
How to Get People to do What YOU Want
Diplomats fall into different categories or archetypes. Some are bossy and curmudgeonly. Some are vague and try to stay neutral toward everybody. Some are pushovers (the best allies of course!). And some are true diplomats. There is a lot to say on this topic and I hope to get a lot of participation in this thread, but I'd like to start with a couple pointers that have served me well:
17 replies
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SantaClausowitz (360 D)
01 Nov 11 UTC
Veteren World Diplomacy
They say it can't be done, I beg to differ
8 replies
Open
tomob1 (183 D)
04 Nov 11 UTC
New Gunboat
Hi, I'm feeling bored and up for a quick game of diplomacy. 5 min phase. Here's the link if anyone wants to join: gameID=71448. (sorry if I shouldn't be posting this as a thread).
1 reply
Open
Diplomat33 (243 D(B))
02 Nov 11 UTC
Luck in diplomacy.
I found a case of luck. In gunboat, you have 2 SCs open, and can move to one, the opponent can as well. You will either get in one or bounce. 50-50 chance of each. Luck is involved.
27 replies
Open
Yonni (136 D(S))
01 Nov 11 UTC
Homeopathy
So, yesterday's xkcd (http://xkcd.com/971/) prompted me to post this
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Cachimbo (1181 D)
01 Nov 11 UTC
I hate that I'm away with shit internet connection because this is shit I've actually taught at some point and there are some important things to say about homeopathy.

The first is this: homeopathy rests on the belief that if you give someone something that will CAUSE the symptoms he suffers from, it will help him get better.
The second thing of importance is this: you can't just give that something to the person, you must first dilute it in water to such an extent that any active potential that this thing had will be brought down to nil. What matters, what will actually cure you according to homeopathy, is how the water will keep a MEMORY of the active ingredient, and it is that memory that is supposed to cure you.

The London Scientific Association (or something like that, probably has Royal in it, can't look it up cause of shit internet) has offered 10million pounds to the first scientist who can prove that water actually has something like a memory. Many have tried, none have collected.
There is also no experential data that proves to ANY DEGREE that the principles on which homeopathy rests are valid. NONE. ZERO. Please do the research on this properly (not just fucking Wikipedia-shit) before you claim anything else. The placebo effect seems to cover every case where a patient was said to do better under homeopathic treatment. And a placebo effect is not something owned by the pharma world or the scientific method. The placebo effect is a way to capture a phenomenon that is observable beyond the reach of traditional occidental medicine. It has something to do with suggestion (hypnosis is not the right word, but that too is a case of suggestion): placebo effects are greatly improved when the person giving the pill has a special standing in the patient's beliefs. A "nobody" would have a really hard time creating any such effect in a patient.

The debate is not about Homeopathy vs. Occidental Medicine. The question merely is: can we OBSERVE any tangible data which would attest to the truth of the principles on which homeopathy rests. The answer, for the past 150 years or so, has been a resounding NO.
As for nathuropathy, that's a completely distinct question and I have not researched on that topic. As far as I know, however, there does seem to be some data that shows that the "meds" used by naturopaths have some real effects on patients.
Pete U (293 D)
01 Nov 11 UTC
@orathaic - I agree that anti-wrinkle creams and the like should have their claims verified.

However, for homeopathy to be selling the placebo effect is disingenuous. Real medicine is only adopted if it performs better than placebo. A sugar pill from a doctor as some painkilling effect, an injection even more. A doctor cannot presribe either of these - he has to use something better than placebo. If homeopaths were honest and said "You're paying for a nice chat, and a sugar pill, and you might feel a bit better because that's just how your brain works", they would have no business - but they would be truthful

I agree that the medical profession would do better and be more effective if they spent more time with patients - however, the answer to that is not to let snake oil salesmen and quacks pass of the placebo effect as efficacy of product (and make money from it)
Mafialligator (239 D)
01 Nov 11 UTC
You know why homeopaths are better at using the placebo affect than doctors and nurses? Because they have fewer patients and thus more time. It's not that doctors and nurses are all assholes, where as homeopaths and naturopaths are all wonderful people. Doctors and nurses are overworked and overstressed, whereas "alternative medical practitioners" have much more relaxed workdays.
Draugnar (0 DX)
01 Nov 11 UTC
"A sugar pill from a doctor as some painkilling effect, an injection even more. A doctor cannot presribe either of these"

False. A doctor *can* prescribe a placebo if his diagnosis is psychosomatic symptoms and not a real illness.
SacredDigits (102 D)
01 Nov 11 UTC
Yeah, when I worked at the hospital, sodium chloride suspension was the codeword for placebo, and got prescribed a lot, as did dihydrogen oxide (take with tap water). Some people are going there just to get meds without any idea what they want them for.
Pete U (293 D)
01 Nov 11 UTC
@Draug, Sacred - I'll need to dig, but I thought I was right for the UK NHS. I might be wrong.
Onar (131 D)
01 Nov 11 UTC
I forget who said it, but there was a really good quote about how when something works, regardless of origin, it gets referred to as medicine. I'm sure there are plenty of current medicines that started out as all-natural cures. Science saw they worked, and then processed things to make them more efficient, no? Or am I fundamentally misunderstanding how medicine gets made?
ulytau (541 D)
01 Nov 11 UTC
The best way to rake cash from tap water is marketing it as a hydrating lotion. The best part is ít actually works so noone can sue you for selling useless garbage. I can't recall which cosmetic company came with it first but it worked brilliantly, especially since women deemed it worked better than tap water. Blind tests are fun but the power of brand goes beyond them, something like a placebo effect working in consumer behaviour.

Is it even reasonable to separate the actual attributes of some item from the attributes it provides because we attribute those attributes to it aforehand? Is it reasonable to say some item subject to personal prefference, say chocolate, is good if the flavour is appreciated in blind tests but it scores at the bottom if the testers see the brands on all chocolates because it's a low-end one? Are kids unreasonable if they pick cheeseburger from Happy Meal over the same McDonald's cheeseburger bought separately? After all, we derive the pleasure from consuming with the brand in mind so taking it out of the equation doesn't really help in describing the quality of a product.
Pete U (293 D)
01 Nov 11 UTC
Onar - you mean like aspirin, digitalis and so on. The issue was always that we chucked out some good stuff (bread poultice = penicillin?) when we couldn't understand it, not that all 'old style' remedies did not (or did) work.

Medical science standardised doses and so on
Draugnar (0 DX)
01 Nov 11 UTC
I can speak to the NHS, only the US medical system.
Pete U (293 D)
01 Nov 11 UTC
the only thing I've been able to find is a recommendation that a placebo is not administered as the sole treatment. So it looks like I was wrong, although I would guess it would be rare.
semck83 (229 D(B))
01 Nov 11 UTC
I think homeopathy is nonsense by and large, but I certainly think people should be able to pursue whatever kind of healing they desire, at least if they're adults. Medicine can't be proven totally reliable (quite the contrary), so why should anybody be forced to use it? If someone has cancer and doesn't want to put themselves through chemo but their great Uncle Jim swears by drinking 50 gallons of carrot juice a month, well, I certainly think that they should be made to appreciate the information as to the relative successes or backing of the methods, but it's pretty much up to them.

Those who are defending medicine with great vigor should probably take account of recent critiques (by mainstream researchers) to the effect that a majority or even large majority of medical research is badly flawed, and often irreproducible.
semck83 (229 D(B))
01 Nov 11 UTC
Note: and yes, I still believe in and use modern medicine, but I don't think it's some kind of shining infallible model that you must accept whole or be a moron.
orathaic (1009 D(B))
01 Nov 11 UTC
'dihydrogen oxide (take with tap water)', is that not dangerous? I mean, mixing dihydrogen oxide with water could explode!!

I'd find myself in semck's corner, on the basis that if they believe it works the placebo effect may have some benefit (even for some cancer suffers)

How ever, there is a line between brainwashing and advertising which should not be crossed. I don't know how to regulate that. I would prefer to have freedom of choice - and an informed choice not influenced by the amount of money spent by a drugs company's advertising department.

I don't think the issue of fraudulent claims can be dealt with unless you address the larger concerns of informed choice when it comes to medicine.
Draugnar (0 DX)
01 Nov 11 UTC
Well, a placebo doesn't work if the patient *knows* it's a placebo. That said, selling bunk over the counter for a huge profit should not be allowed. Certain natural remedies have been shown to carry potential positive effects, hence the argument for legalizing pot at least as a medicinal drug. And even my doctor recommends the additional Vitamin D3 for my wife to help her process the calcium that helps fight her osteoporosis.

But these "memory water" snake oil solutions should be banned. They serve no purpose and even say the claims haven't been verified. If a claim hasn't been verified on even a low level, then there is no reason the product should be allowed to promote said use with a super fine print disclaimer. Instead, they should be banned from promoting it for that use altogether. Most naturopathic and holistic remedies have had some research and do show promise. Those should be allowed to have the claims, but "memory" H2O? Oh hell no. Let's let the wineries list the positive effects of a glass of red wine every now and then instead.
Yonni (136 D(S))
01 Nov 11 UTC
"But these "memory water" snake oil solutions should be banned"

At least from being sold in drug stores. And certainly banned from being promoted as remedies to serious illnesses. I don't really care if someone wants to buy some tap water to cure their headache or nausea but it should be criminal to suggest to people to use homeopathy to try cure a serious illness *instead* of conventional medicine
Draugnar (0 DX)
01 Nov 11 UTC
Agreed. Water is an inactive ingredient in many things. It isn't a cure to anything except dehydration. :-)
orathaic (1009 D(B))
01 Nov 11 UTC
i'm sure water can be used to dilute poisonings aswell; just to be clear.
orathaic (1009 D(B))
01 Nov 11 UTC
so, cn you draft a simple pan-Eu resolution which would cover all these issues? and then compare it to the actual regulations being brought in at EU level?
Yonni (136 D(S))
02 Nov 11 UTC
What regulations are being brought in at the EU level?
SacredDigits (102 D)
02 Nov 11 UTC
Sorry, meant dihydrogen monoxide.
Pete U (293 D)
02 Nov 11 UTC
@semck - i agree people should have the choice, but it should be an informed choice between things that work (but may have risks), not completely unsupported rubbish. And that means requiring proof of efficacy, and better education on stats, risks etc. But that's another debate
semck83 (229 D(B))
02 Nov 11 UTC
@Pete, so far as I can tell, you are saying that you do not think people should have the choice (at least, the choice that I was talking of).
spyman (424 D(G))
02 Nov 11 UTC
"Well, a placebo doesn't work if the patient *knows* it's a placebo."

Draug, you know what is really amazing? Apparently placebos do work work even when the patient knows\
http://www.guardian.co.uk/science/2010/dec/22/placebo-effect-patients-sham-drug
Draugnar (0 DX)
02 Nov 11 UTC
I don't get how someone can conciously know they are taking suger (or water or whatever) but still convince their subconcious that it is medication... Weird.
SacredDigits (102 D)
02 Nov 11 UTC
Their body recognizes the physical cues of taking medication and reacts to them.
Pete U (293 D)
02 Nov 11 UTC
@semck - I think people should have the choice, but it needs to be informed choice. In my view, that means any product, process or technique that purports to offer a health benefit beyond that of placebo *must* demonstrate that benefit through properly controlled and measured scientific means. All 'normal' medications MUST have this data. But homeopathy doesn't have to (and actually can't) provide that data.

It's not about removing choice - it's about stopping people from taking money under false pretences. Homeopathy is the medicinal equivalent of a Ponzi scheme - but no-one says we should be free to invest our money in fraudulent schemes
Draugnar (0 DX)
02 Nov 11 UTC
Actually, yuou are free to invest your money in a fraudulent scheme. It's not against the law to get taken, it's against the law to be the taker.
orathaic (1009 D(B))
02 Nov 11 UTC
"i agree people should have the choice, but it should be an informed choice between things that work (but may have risks), not completely unsupported rubbish"

but as i've stated homeopathy can infact perform better than some standard treatments.

Thus the user will conclude it does work. And they are not going to trust your information.

It is not fraud if paying the money as part of a ritual helps the person feel better.
Pete U (293 D)
02 Nov 11 UTC
orathaic - homeopathy can't.

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83 replies
SantaClausowitz (360 D)
03 Nov 11 UTC
American Delusion
Discussing the hstoric propensity of Americans to wrongly assume others want to be like us.
25 replies
Open
bc2000 (990 D)
03 Nov 11 UTC
NEW GAME: Classic Map - 202 bet - 4 days turn.
http://webdiplomacy.net/board.php?gameID=71417
1 reply
Open
Jacob (2466 D)
02 Nov 11 UTC
Out-Guessing Your Opponent
Oftentimes you are presented with difficult tactical decisions. Consider a move where you could take a SC two different ways. Your opponent can defend against either move successfully, but not both. Which move do you choose?
40 replies
Open
Yellowjacket (835 D(B))
30 Oct 11 UTC
I miss King Atom
Now that he's gone, I kind of miss him. Though his comments were often inane and nonsensical, there was a sort of clarity of thought to them that, in retrospect... I really respect. You might even call it a kind of genius? Come back to us, KA!
64 replies
Open
zultar (4180 DMod(P))
01 Nov 11 UTC
Anyone has a beta key or account for Diablo 3 that they are willing to share?
Anyone?
25 replies
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Putin33 (111 D)
27 Oct 11 UTC
Police crack skull of Iraq war veteran
http://www.washingtonpost.com/national/police-action-in-oakland-atlanta-camps-removal-unnerves-some-anti-wall-street-protesters/2011/10/27/gIQA5BpNLM_story.html
204 replies
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Putin33 (111 D)
02 Nov 11 UTC
Cain is done
http://www.jsonline.com/watchdog/noquarter/state-firms-cash-to-herman-cain-may-breach-federal-campaign-tax-laws-132898423.html
35 replies
Open
ILN (100 D)
02 Nov 11 UTC
Ingenious bottle light
Ingenious 3rd world solution for a 3rd world problem http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SBWi3NtND68
0 replies
Open
ILN (100 D)
02 Nov 11 UTC
Moscow-armenia
can a ship build in moscow go to armenia?
12 replies
Open
N.N. (100 D)
02 Nov 11 UTC
Join the Game, They Said
gameID=71352 - everyone determined to submit orders in time and not to leave in the first turn just 'cause Austria sucks - is welcome to join the game. However, volunteers from the late "Why so Anonymous?" game are most likely to be given priority (pacta sunt servanda). But I think we will have some free seats.
0 replies
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orathaic (1009 D(B))
01 Nov 11 UTC
anyone going to carnage?
The 2011 DipCon will be hosted by the Carnage game convention at the Lake Morey Resort in Fairlee, Vermont.
6 replies
Open
Chester (0 DX)
22 Oct 11 UTC
Mais um jogo em Português
Depois de o primeiro jogo ter corrido muito bem quem está comigo para jogarmos mais um jogo em português?
46 replies
Open
Sicarius (673 D)
31 Oct 11 UTC
Political Views Are Reflected in Brain Structure
via science daily.

thoughts?
34 replies
Open
Diplomat33 (243 D(B))
02 Nov 11 UTC
My 700th post.
Well, I've ben here less than 2 months and am already in the 700 club! Wow!
9 replies
Open
Victorious (768 D)
02 Nov 11 UTC
unsportive behaviour
@ Splitdiplomat userID=36887 to withdraw your draw vote seconds before a CD while the rest also votes draw, only because you came out of the turn well is very unsportive behaviour (at least in my eyes).
12 replies
Open
Yellowjacket (835 D(B))
02 Nov 11 UTC
help
I filtered my frequency too sharply, and now my gibbs is ringing. Please advise.
13 replies
Open
jman (199 D)
01 Nov 11 UTC
Points per SC
hey do you get more points if you end with more than 18 SCs?
14 replies
Open
fabiobaq (444 D)
02 Nov 11 UTC
Should I be suspicious? Multi theoretical question
When a player enter orders not to move during two turns, and then CD, just in time for another player to encircle him and grasp all of his centers, should I be suspicious of multi or that's the kind of thing that happens all the time?

Of course I won't point to any specific game, as I wouldn't want to make cheating accusations in the forum. All I want is your oppinion as wether I should bother the mods should that occurr or it's a common situation.
6 replies
Open
Diplomat33 (243 D(B))
30 Oct 11 UTC
Anyone here a star trek fan and would like to play a game entirely in klingon?
We could play in klingon if anyone finds a good online translator. What fun it would be!
43 replies
Open
principians (881 D)
02 Nov 11 UTC
what do you think...
about this http://www.fpif.org/articles/why_the_us_supports_israel?
2 replies
Open
Geofram (130 D(B))
01 Nov 11 UTC
Battlefield 3 PC
Anyone grab it? By far my favourite shooter since COD4. We should make a WebDip squad. My handle: NR_Geofram
11 replies
Open
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