He put in at the end of the NT as an appendix, and said it had 'no evangelical merit'.

"Summa, Sanct Johannis Evangel. und seine erste Epistel, Sanct Paulus Epistel(n), sonderlich die zu den Römern, Galatern, Ephesern, und Sanct Peters erste Epistel. das sind die Bücher, die dir Christum zeigen, und alles lehren, das dir zu wissen noth und selig ist ob du sohon kein ander Buch noch Lehre nummer [nimmermehr] sehest and horist [hörest]. Darumb ist Sanct Jakobs Epistel ein recht strohern(e) Epistel, gegen sie, denn sie doch kein(e) evangelisch(e) Art an ihr hat. Doch davon weiter in andern Vorreden." - Luther's 1522 Preface to the New Testament

If your main point is 'Salvation by Faith Alone' and that the only place in the canon where the words Faith and Alone appear together are prefaced by a NOT, it would be a good idea to downplay this book. This is one of the examples of the problems of the personal interpretation of scripture and where Catholics and Orthodox can fall back at looking at the tradition of the Church to demonstrate a continual practice or at least an organic development.

So has anyone got any idea why Luther's opinion of "The Epistle of St. James" is in any way relevant?

@joey: the great thing about being Protestant is that you can drop the stupid ideas of earlier Protestants, even if they're really important in other ways. Luther thought he was living in the End Times, and made some decisions that were...idiosyncratic, to choose a polite word. But that's OK, because Luther's not right about everything.

As for "continual," anyone who thinks they can trace one tradition back to the beginning of the church is delusional. There have always been many traditions that have co-existed in tension.

"So has anyone got any idea why Luther's opinion of "The Epistle of St. James" is in any way relevant?"

Shouldn't it be obvious? Luther initiated the doctrine of 'sola fide', which all Protestant sects subsequently adopted. This idea was one of the main doctrinal breaks with the apostolic church. The basis on which he was able to assert this idea was by removing several books from the OT and diminishing the status of James in the NT.

@Putin: what are you doing arguing about theology?

I went through enough religious instruction to have an opinion on the matter of sola fide.

@Putin

But not enough religious instruction to realize that not all Protestant sects reject apostolic succession. The Anglican Church is an apostolic church. Sola fide is the idea that only faith will lead to salvation. If you actually go to a few Protestant churches you'll see that lots of them advocate faith and works. The problem that Luther was addressing was that "good works" at the time meant buying indulgences and partaking of sacraments. The good works advocated by Christ weren't the same things advocated by the Church at the time. Sense then most of the churches that I'm aware of make sacraments part of their doctrine but also advocate treating others well. Luther was reacting to a problem that was fixed. Unless you've met too many people around who believe that buying relics will earn them a spot in Heaven even if they are morally bankrupt.

Join the game named flash game 2 we only need to more!

Crazy Anglican +1

The modern ELCA is both Evangelical and Apostolic. It encourages it's members to show their faith through their works and, in so doing, grows the ranks of the faithful. Luther was never against doing works to show your faith. But the selling of salvation was a problem for him. Salvation is by faith through grace, but we are to put on the whole armor of Christ which includes growing in our faith by doing the works that God puts upon our hearts.

I must note that I have discovered Putin thinlks he knows everything about every topic and is always right. I'm guessing him to be about 14 and a friend of The_Master_Warrior/diplofool (or another of diplofool's accounts)

"I must note that I have discovered Putin thinlks he knows everything about every topic and is always right. "

Projection much? You're the most pedantic person here. Kinda funny hearing you claim this. And I don't know anyone here outside of the game, and you're quite a ways off about my age.

"But not enough religious instruction to realize that not all Protestant sects reject apostolic succession."

Yes, Anglicans may claim that. But I don't think many take their claim to be continuous with the pre-Reform Church in England very seriously - considering the adoption of various Protestant positions on everything from the sacraments to the abolition of Mass and penance. You can't annihilate the old doctrine and then magically claim continuity with any credibility.

Sola fide had much more to do with trying to assert the idea that you didn't need priests and sacraments than indulgences or whatever it is you're talking about. The Protestant sects still claim that salvation has nothing to do with 'human achievement' and that salvation is an event, not a process.

Pedantic - insisting people and things must *be* right and correcting their errors. Not insisting I *am* right. Yes, I am pedantic. But I don't claim to know everything on every topic. I even complimented you on your knowledge of Russia and WWII as it is far superior to my own. But I think, as a Lutheran raised in the Can you admit a lack of knowledge in *any* area? I don't think you can.

Grrrr...

But I think, as a Lutheran raised in the church, that I know a little about the beliefs of which I profess. Can you admit a lack of knowledge in *any* area? I don't think you can.

I was raised Catholic and attended CCD all while growing up, so I'm simply stating my opinion based on what I was taught. Regardless of what people believe now, they can never fully escape the stamp of their birth. Plus, I believe the ideology of capitalism rests on Protestant foundations and the doctrine of sola fide in particular. Maybe I've been too influenced by Max Weber.

Anyway I lack knowledge on a large number of subjects. Music, art history, natural sciences (minus some knowledge of evolutionary biology and some cursory understanding of Big Bang theory), my knowledge of ancient history is still not very good, I have a very limited understand of statistics, despite my need to know more. Mathematics in general is not my strong suit. Minus an interest in film, my pop culture knowledge is poor. My foreign language ability is intermediate at best even in the language I know best - Serbian.

And don't even bother asking me anything related to machinery, computers or anything mechanical, I don't have a clue.

So based on your *Catholic* upbringing, you think you know *Protestantism* so well. It wasn't that long ago Lutherans wer ebeing called heretics by the Catholic church. I think you need to consider the source of your teachings. Hardy an unbiased source, now is it?

My religious background:

Raised in the Lutheran faith (pre-ELCA)
Spent a few years in the Church of God and Southern Baptist churches
Spent several more in the United Church of Christ (different from Church of Christ)
Eventually found my way back to the Lutheran Church

I can say that Church of God and Southern Baptist are all about an event (being born again as it were) for salvation. UCC and Lutheran, however, are very much about reaffirming one's faith in Christ everyday through one's actions and devotion to Him.

can someone tell me if the world is going to end in 2012 :(

no its not. I personally believe there's going to be some big historical event or something, but the world will not end

ok thanks but what do you mean bye historical event like what are you thinking. i doent think itll end either

Well, the President will be elected. That's a big historical event. It may be a reelection for the current guy, it may be a new guy, or it may even be a woman.

what does the church guy think does he think it will?

yah i want it to be a women for once

"So based on your *Catholic* upbringing, you think you know *Protestantism* so well. It wasn't that long ago Lutherans wer ebeing called heretics by the Catholic church. I think you need to consider the source of your teachings. Hardy an unbiased source, now is it?"

And many Protestant sects still call Catholicism a pagan cult and the Pope the anti-Christ. So? How are you 'unbiased'? I'm familiar enough with church history to have some background as to what Luther and his crowd were after.
My father's side of the family are all Protestants - Assembly of God, Presbyterian or Jehovah's Witness types, so I'm exposed to their views quite a lot, especially their anti-Catholicism.

If your sects don't believe in sola fide then one wonders why they publish documents claiming to support it, like the Lutheran and Anglican sects do.

? so do you think itll happen

putin33 do you think 2012 will happen.

No.

k

JW's protestant? Try fringe.
Assembly of God - very Pentecostal
Presbyterian - Calvinistic

Yes, there are sects of Protestantism that still consider the Pope the anti-Christ. They will discover their hatemongering to be their downfall in the afterlife.

And yes, Sola Fide is the order of the day when it comes to almost all (I hesitate to say all should there be one that doesn't believe that) protestant faiths, but that doesn't preclude the concept that faith without works is dead. We may be saved by our faith, but when we fall down before Jesus, will he say "well done my child"? Or will he say "you did not unto the least of these, therefore you did not unto me"?

We are saved by faith through grace. But our actions build up our riches in heaven, and by that I believe that our riches will be the joy of seeing others we brought to see Christ or those whom we cared for when they could not care for themselves. We will experience greater joy at this knowledge. Those who may be saved but don't walk Christ's walk and sacrifice for others will not experience that joy and the worst, those who deceive others and led them astray, will feel regret and sorrow and never be able to truly enjoy the afterlife.

Of course, those are my personal views based on my own studies of the Bible and do not necessarily correlate with every teaching of any one faith.

"JW's protestant? Try fringe.
Assembly of God - very Pentecostal
Presbyterian - Calvinistic"

Yes, glad nothing holds you back from reducing the views of other Protestant sects (churches which you didn't manage to belong to at one point) to a word or two, but yet I have to be a Lutheran to say anything about Luther.