@ fiedler: "ahh.. the west tried to conquer all of korea back in the fifties... china intervened with millions of troops, people died, quite a few in fact. look it up."

It's a bit more complicated than that.

I presume you are arguing that after WWII the whole of Korea should have been returned to Japanese control?

Nope. Why do you ask that? :)

@ fiedler: "Nope. Why do you ask that?"

Because of your suggestion that "the west tried to conquer Korea".

Korea was part of Japan from 1910 until 1945. Therefore, if the west had kept out of Korea, presumably Korea would have remained officially part of Japan.

I think he's just referring to the Korean war, mate

@jamiet99uk: hardly! if the west had stayed out all of korea would now be a chinese province, in the style of tibet.

@goldfinger0303: "I think he's just referring to the Korean war, mate."

The Korean war hardly represents "the west trying to conquer Korea".

@ fiedler: "if the west had stayed out all of korea would now be a chinese province, in the style of tibet."

And you think that would be a good thing?

I think he's referring to the fact that the USA forces drove all the way to the Chinese borders despite China's many objections, hence "conquering all of Korea." I don't think he meant it as conquer and absorb into the USA

Did the US forces drive all the way to the Chinese border?

I was under the impression that they only got as far as the 38th Parallel, the territory to the North of that initially falling under Soviet control?

Unless by "the Chinese border" you *meant* the 38th Parallel - in which case you'd be factually incorrect.

No, I believe they reached the Yalu before the Chinese intervened. Either that or they were really close to the Yalu, but yeah they controlled almost all of North Korea's territory before China joined in

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Korean_war_1950-1953.gif

Ok sure they got further than the 38th Parallel, I stand corrected. However as Stratagos's helpful GIF shows, although there was a point where the US/UN/South Korean forces were quite far into what is now North Korea, they never controlled the north all the way to the Chinese border.

Alright, so they never touched the Yalu, but they got darn close. Still, we have drifted far off topic of the current situation. This discussion of ours was started because of an observation that the Chinese government isn't as supportive of the North Korean regime now as it was back then. The question is, should South Korea retaliate, and if so, what would the Chinese/Russian reaction be? There also is the succession of Kim-jong-Il by his son in the near future to consider as well. Is this his doing or his son's?

The Chinese have a legitimate concern that if someone just busts out a can of whup ass, they're going to have millions of refugees streaming over the border - so they're supporting NK less because they think Shorty is keen than because the collapse of his regime is going to be a colossal pain in the ass

That's a good observation. There are already people from the North fleeing to China, but if shit went down, several million would move out. I'm sure the South doesn't want that either. I still say we should make a nice crater out of that new plant. Solves two problems in one :)

Is scagga really swallowing the line that NK *didn't* sink the Cheonan?

Pleeease. Why don't you go back to your UFOs?

@goldfinger: 'what would the Chinese/Russian reaction be?" I think they'd be very pleased as long as they could control the aftermath in some way.

Actually, I'm just reading this in the news, Russia has condemned the action, and China is calling for restraint and resuming peace talks. These reactions are far less favorable to North Korea than previous ones are. I think the north stepped over the line finally and did something more than its allies could swallow

@Jamiet99uk: 'Korea was part of Japan from 1910 until 1945. Therefore, if the west had kept out of Korea, presumably Korea would have remained officially part of Japan. '

Officially part of Japan?!?!? Part of the Japanese War of Aggression maybe. Like Manchuria . . . and Nanking/Nanjing.

China will not back North Korea, I'm sure.

I think the trouble re China is that there are two American bases/colonies on their borders - Taiwan and South Korea. Both are sucking in weapons of major destruction. Not cool. Definitely not cool. How would you feel with two gangs casing your backyard? With a big big brother in the background? Not too cool.

Since the Soviet collapse, you can't really call Russia a big ally of North Korea.

Actually. Since the Sino-Soviet split, you can't really call Russia a *big* ally of North Korea.

But I still believe they won't back North Korea cos they're a buncha dumbass bitches.

@HR: 'Nobody is an ally of North Korea. She's out on her own, doing her own thaang.'

When you ain't got nothin', you got nothin' to lose.

If there was a Korean war again. Would China allow South Korea and the US to take over North Korea?

No. China would defend North Korea (and not take over because of the problems that would cause - getting rid of the personality cults etc). Making China an ally.

Just not a particularly strong one.

Actually Timur, during the first half of the the twentieth century, korea was a possession of the Empire of Japan, much like the Philippines were a possession of the United States. And yes, the Chinese are pissed with the US supplying weapons to Taiwan and South Korea, but its as if someone were giving advanced fighter jets to Cuba. The USA would be pissed for sure, but its nothing we can't handle.

And duly noted HR, though Russia is still part of the peace conferences.

Of course, Russia is still affected by North Korea, having a border there and everything

You all talk about this as if it's some college project. Well no, it's not just another crappy project. It's here, it's now, it's real.