I also don't approve of the christian idea that we are 'sinful' because of original sin.

I like Gene Roddenberry on this one:

"We must question the story logic of having an all-knowing all-powerful God, who creates faulty Humans, and then blames them for his own mistakes."

Nuff said.

One must then question whether making humans with the capacity for growth was a mistake.

I simply don't know.

Is Africa even real? I have never seen it or touched it or smelled it. The images I have seen of it could be fake or of other places. People with African coloured skin may actually be from somewhere else. Or it could be advanced paint that I was not aware of. There are many scenarios that I can think of or have heard (matrix, truman show) which could make everything I thought I knew false. I could be some ultra-being as powerful as God having an enjoying 'dream' in which I forget who I was and am put into this situation. The purposes of these 'dreams' could be to enhance wisdom.

That said I am sure there is existence. Not necessarily my existence though.

"And that's my "story", for the purposes of this thread. I am certain, for practical purposes, that there is no such thing as the supernatural, including God(s), but also other crap like ghosts or astrology. I have come to this view because in my 29 years of existence I have never seen, encountered or heard anything to suggest that there is even the smallest possibility that such things exist."

-So before we knew about Pluto, had you been alive, you would have been certain it did not exist. Wait a minute, you say you "have never seen, encountered or heard anything to suggest that there is even the smallest possibility that such things exist." Has no one told you God exists? Does that not count for anything? Much of my knowledge is based completely on what has been told to me by people.

As for organized religion, I see a lot of things in them I disagree with. However I see stuff which I think is good. I particularly think the Bahai faith is interesting.

Ultimately, I don't know however I am willing to pretend I know what is right and wrong based on instinct and my instincts reaction to my surroundings. This is a result of my hedonistic tendency. My want of pleasure lead me to want normal human wants but also equality because if I establish a world where every person is happy I am much more likely to keep on living happily. And so my idea of right and wrong are roughly based on that. "Do on to others as you would have them do onto you"-which is an idea from organized religion which I like.

@ Jamiet -- Sin is a creation of man, not God. He, rightfully, blames us for something that is our fault.

Also, there is no human that has not sinned. If Adam & Eve hadn't brought sin into the world, someone else down the road would have.

@ Bob -- There IS evidence of a higher being, just no proof. Likewise, there IS evidence of the Bible being a bunch of BS, just no proof.

How is it our fault? Before they ate from the tree of knowledge, how could A&E even comprehend what sin was?

@The_Mater_Warrior- I haven't sinned but I can't really prove that to you. What about new-born babies: have they sinned? Also, isn't it Gods fault for giving us the freedom to sin?

@Lord Garth: "So before we knew about Pluto, had you been alive, you would have been certain it did not exist"

Before we knew about Pluto, I would not have had any thoughts about Pluto at all, silly. Pluto would not have been a subject on which it would have been possible for me to have an opinion, since I would have no concept of 'Pluto'.

@The_Master_Warrior: "Sin is a creation of man, not God. He, rightfully, blames us for something that is our fault."

But God is "all knowing", right? So he KNEW we were going to sin even while he was designing us. So he knowingly designed us as sinners. So it's his fault. No?

Ok i just want to do a bit of clarifying here. You can eat the post, rip to pieces, or whatever you want but just hear me out.

The idea of God allowing us to sin is true, however it has motives that are very logical. If you lived with a person who was paid to like you, do you think it would be a very sincere sort of love? No, it wouldn't, because they have no other option than to love you. However, if a person independently and of their own will chooses to love you, then it feels really good, because it is, hopefully, entirely genuine. It is the same way with God and us. Without the option of NOT loving God (sinning), then LOVING him would mean nothing because we had no other choice. I hope that makes sense. And the whole god knowing everything but still creating humanity is a whole different animal that goes into predestination which pretty much no two Christians agree on exactly.

@ Jamiet --

I'm not going to try to explain something that I do not know myself. Likewise, I don't expect you to explain how that the Bible was written over the course of thousands of years by thousands of authors who did not know each other, yet does not have a single contradiction in the storyline.

"yet does not have a single contradiction in the storyline. "

Surely you don't mean that. The bible is overflowing with contradictions.

Hey, I have a great idea! I'll set up straw man arguments and pretend I believe them, you can pretend I have the slightest idea of how to defend something I actually believe! It's the perfect plan! Mommy would be so proud of me if she didn't ban me from the internet for failing that history test last week - I *said* something was true, so it was supposed to be true! My teacher is a communist or something.

Sorry, I know I should refrain, but, *God* you're bad at this, TMW.

Pun intentional

@TWM

Please clear up a couple points of confusion for me. To me, these seem like contradictions, but since you clearly state there are none, I must be mistaken:
---
MAT 1:16 And Jacob begat Joseph the husband of Mary, of whom was born Jesus, who is called Christ.

LUK 3:23 And Jesus himself began to be about thirty years of age, being (as was supposed) the son of Joseph, which was the son of Heli.
---
GEN 7:2 Of every clean beast thou shalt take to thee by sevens, the male and his female: and of beasts that are not clean by two, the male and his female.

GEN 7:8 Of clean beasts, and of beasts that are not clean, and of fowls, and of every thing that creepeth upon the earth, GEN 7:9 There went in two and two unto Noah into the ark, the male and the female, as God had commanded Noah.
---
ISA 14:21 Prepare slaughter for his children for the iniquity of their fathers; that they do not rise, nor possess the land, nor fill the face of the world with cities.

DEU 24:16 The fathers shall not be put to death for the children, neither shall the children be put to death for the fathers: every man shall be put to death for his own sin.
---
"And he said, Thou canst not see my face; for there shall no man see me and live." (EXO 33:20)

"And the Lord spake to Moses face to face, as a man speaketh to his friend." (EXO 33:11)
"For I have seen God face to face, and my life is preserved." (GEN 32:30)

@abgemacht - I can asnwer about Joseph's father. Heli (Eli) was Joseph's mother's first husband. He died before Joseph was born, but it makes Joseph part of the line of Heli as well as Jacob.

"Is Africa even real? I have never seen it or touched it or smelled it. The images I have seen of it could be fake or of other places. People with African coloured skin may actually be from somewhere else. Or it could be advanced paint that I was not aware of. There are many scenarios that I can think of or have heard (matrix, truman show) which could make everything I thought I knew false. I could be some ultra-being as powerful as God having an enjoying 'dream' in which I forget who I was and am put into this situation. The purposes of these 'dreams' could be to enhance wisdom."

Make it a goal to go visit Africa then. At least the existence of Africa is a testable claim within the practical limits of our perception. Claiming philosophical skepticism hardly helps in a debate.

To answer the OP, I grew up in a pretty non-religious family. My parents were both immigrants from China and didn't really have any religious beliefs. As a young impressionable child, I can say that there were times when religion had it's allure. Most of my friends were Christian, I remember the first few books of the Left Behind series almost had me accepting Jesus as my savior. However, for the most part, I regarded religion as a somewhat absurd and outdated tradition. I didn't consider myself an atheist, simply because the question of God's existence was not of any significance to me personally, and I felt no compulsion to give myself a label for my disbelief just as I don't feel a compulsion to give myself a label regarding my lack of interest in rugby.

Later on, my parents would start to develop religious sentiment and they even started taking me to church. God, that was boring. It was when I challenged my parents burgeoning belief, that I first began to formulate concrete arguments against the existence of God, instead of my previous indifference. I succeeded in persuading my parents. I slowly adopted the label of atheist as I grew more and more frustrated with the injection of religious perspective into issues where I thought they had no place, such as ethical debate, public policy, and probably the most irritating to me, science. It was one thing for people to hold their own private beliefs and worship, but it was another for them to impose their arbitrary doctrines on others.

@Chrisp

thanks for the post, thats the kind of thing i was hoping people would post. Seems most people missed the point of this thread...

also "It was one thing for people to hold their own private beliefs and worship, but it was another for them to impose their arbitrary doctrines on others." +1

@ The_Master_Warrior:

"The Bible...does not have a single contradiction in the storyline"

Hahahahahahaha.

"So he KNEW we were going to sin even while he was designing us. So he knowingly designed us as sinners. So it's his fault. No?"

No. He designed us with the capacity to choose whether or not to sin. That hardly makes each individual sin his fault.

@ abgemacht

"From reading your story, it seems to be that although you have faith in a higher power, you don't really subscribe to a particular organized religion. Have I understood you correctly?"

No, not really. I certainly do subscribe to one particular organized religion. In looking at the choices available to me I found that Christianity was the best fit for me in particular. All arguments aside the real issue in any religion is whether or not you are working toward your own betterment and that of the people around you. Striving for an ideal creates growth. I find the ideal of Jesus Christ's life and teaching to be a worthy one. It's not that I do not prefer one religion to another. I'm just not threatened if someone else chooses differently, nor do I pretend to know if God prefers one religion to another. Just like everyone else I'll do the best I can with what I have and at the end I'll be able to say that I did the best I could with what I had. The good thing about Christianity though is that I have an advocate and do not have to rely only on my own righteousness. Righteousness is something for which to strive, but we'll all fall short to some degree. The strength of Christianity is the forgiveness interwoven into it, that is available for anyone who seeks to partake of it.

@CA

Thanks for the response. I have to say, I meet so few people that take that view point that it's almost hard for me to comprehend. I'm always humbled when people can believe in Christ's teachings *and* be not be threatened by those who don't.

It all started when i was a youngin. My parents took me to church about every sunday of my life. We go to the Free Methodist Church (small denomination i doubt you'll find another Free Methodist on this site) and i was taught to be a Christian and taught what everyone else was taught. Around my seventh grade year i decided it may not be true. Then i went to church camp and decided afterwards i was gonna read up on the subject. i have found that i believe in Christianity ( in fact i'm on the path to becoming a pastor someday) I have found that Jesus died and was risen again and that the Bible is God inspired. I realized that Christianity is different than other religions because of one thing. To get to heaven in these other religions you have to follow the 5 pillars or the ten commandments or achieve enlightenment by following some other set of rules. But in Christianity i am saved by the Grace of God and by his grace only. Not by me following a certain set of things i have to do. I am saved by faith. But as it says in the Bible faith without works is dead and deeds without faith is dead too. It takes both to be a Chrisitian having a relationship with Jesus and doing his will. But anyways yeah thats what i believe. I believe that Jesus Christ was the son of God and that he died for my sins and that he rose again on the third day. i believe that the Bible is God's word and that it applies to my life. Call me stupid but its what i believe. Might i suggest some books that helped me in my coming to my beliefs A Case for Christ and a Case for Faith by Lee Strobel.

The third one was different contexts. I hate it when atheists dig up all of these little, out-of-context verses, compare it to another out-of-context verse, and regard it as a major storyline contradiction.

@ Chrisp

I'm not what you think I am. You (and I) both dislike televangelists like Pat Robertson who force their views on others. They say "Listen to us or burn in hell." They say "Single mothers, thieves, homosexuals, and rapists will burn in hell." That's extremely hypocritical. Under their logic, a five-year-old who lies about eating a chocolate-chip cookie because he's scared will burn in hell. Would they ever say that? No. No sin is worse or not-as-bad as any other sin. There are serial killers in heaven and hell. There are five-year-old liars in heaven and hell. These televangelists like to play God and comdemn others to hell, when they have no authority to. God and God alone is the judge. And, someday, we will all be judged.

Believe it or not, I'm not that way. I never force my religion on anyone else. Sure, I'll defend my beliefs; anyone should. And I'll gladly provide information about my religion under appropriate circumstances (i.e. a friend of mine is spiritually lost and doesn't know where to turn) Sure, my political views are influenced by my Christianity, but I'm no theocrat. I even respect parts of other religions. Like the hospitality laws of Islam. That part of Islam is highly respectable.

@ everyone

Atheists are terrified of people like Pat Robertson, and they should be. We all should be. But people like Pat Robertson are not true representatives of Christianity. Likewise, the Taliban are not true representatives of Islam.

I'm a strong advocate of religious freedom. I privately believe that every religion besides Christianity is flawed. But I respect and recognize every major religion.

@TWM

"The third one was different contexts."

Thanks for answering 1 of 4 of hundreds I could have posted.

Look, when people claim to use the Bible as a source of moral teaching, I'm OK with that, because I assume that they can pick and chose the relevant sections for today. But, when people claim that there are *no* contradictions in the bible, well, there better be *no* contradictions. I'm sorry if you can't back up your outlandish claims.

@TMW i'm a christian and i'm even terrified of Pat-Robertson

Christianity the religion is flawed. Because all religion will be flawed. As long as there is an institution. Christ didnt come to start a new religion he came to save the world nd to teach Love. Religious leaders never seem to preach love. How ironic.

@The Prussian agreed. That should be a Christians logo is their love for others. That should be how you tell them apart from the world. unfortunately thats not what it has become.

TMW, I'm not sure why you directed your post at me, since nothing in my post was directed at you... I'm not even that angry at evangelicals, depite my opinion that it's a cash cow scam, because at least the people who send them money are doing so of their own volition.

What irks me more is, for example, say we're debating the morality of abortion. I think there are a lot of pro's and con's and that one could make the ethical argument on either side from a purely secular standpoint. However, even in public discourse, where actual legislation is at stake, people constantly inject the religious perspective, and say we should or shouldn't do something because my God would not approve. Considering the variety of Gods worshipped, and the differing beliefs and commandments attributed to the same God by different people, such argument is absolutely useless. I could easily say that *my* God believes the opposite, and we'd reach no common ground. Invoking religion in an ethical debate means that the discourse doesn't get to the core of the issue, and when this leads to legislation such as gay marriage bans, there is a clear imposition of ones own standards and morality upon others.

Considering that God is supposed to be an omniscient, omnipotent being who's previous actions ought to baffle any sane human being, it's surprising that so many people are so sure they know what he wants. It must be a very convenient coincidence that the belief's of one's God always seem to match one's own beliefs.

@Chrisp:
Technically speaking, everyone who talks about the view of "their" God is talking about the view of God, period. "God" in the sense that they mean it is everybody's God. So, that means that not just my God, but your God, Chrisp, says abortion is so-and-so. They see universal standards about things, rather than personal feelings about things

I thought it might be helpful to clarify that.